Sustainable Supply Chain

The Direct-To-Consumer Wine Supply Chain - A Chat With Wine Access COO Andrew Walleck

February 28, 2022 Tom Raftery / Andrew Walleck Season 1 Episode 204
Sustainable Supply Chain
The Direct-To-Consumer Wine Supply Chain - A Chat With Wine Access COO Andrew Walleck
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Show Notes Transcript

The direct-to-consumer wine supply chain is one that has had an interesting ride, especially in the last two years.

To learn more about some of the challenges companies in this space face, and the innovative ways they overcome them, I invited Andrew Walleck of COO of Wine Access to come on the podcast.

We had a fascinating conversation discussing some of the challenges that are unique to the wine shipping industry, some of the innovative ways Wine Access has overcome them, and where to next for Wine Access.

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Andrew Walleck:

sort of doing the same thing and hoping people just kind of stick by us and can cut it. We have to keep keep pushing the envelope and keep making it even better and more convenience in order to hang on to the you know, to the folks who discovered us. So, it's been a fun, interesting challenge. And I think that we're looking forward to kind of the New Horizons.

Tom Raftery:

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening wherever you are in the world. This is the digital supply chain podcast, the number one podcast focusing on the digitization of supply chain. And I'm your host, global vice president of SAP. Tom Raftery. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the digital supply chain podcast. My name is Tom Raftery with SAP and with me on the show today I've got my special guest, Andrew. Andrew, welcome to the show. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Andrew Walleck:

Absolutely. So I'm Andrew Walleck. I am the chief operating officer of a company called wine access based here in Napa, California. And in my role, I'm responsible for supply chain logistics, compliance and customer service for a retail platform called called line access along with a winery called cucina sellers, which is the entity that does all of our supply chain stuff here in the United States. I've been in this role for three or four years. Y axis is a portfolio company of Norwest, Venture Partners and BP. And I have about 10 years of experience. Prior to this in a couple of different supply chain companies. I was a I'm currently a recovering management consultant. And I got my MBA from Northwestern in 2013.

Tom Raftery:

Okay, and when access I mean, so you sell direct to consumer wine, I go to wine access.com order my wine there, and it comes to me in a delivery vehicle a day or two later is that basically are

Andrew Walleck:

you more more or less out there and the the whole industry this is kind of the this is kind of an interesting, an interesting pivot that I'll that I'll describe here that's very unique to the United States and very unique to alcohol. So I shouldn't you know, I shouldn't dive too deep. But I'll just give you an overview by saying what access is actually the marketplace through which wines are sold. cucina sellers is the entity that actually does the picking up the fulfilling the giving to common carriers so that they may pick it or they need to take the wines, the final mile to customers houses. Direct to consumer wine is actually a relatively new phenomenon. Here in the US. There was a 2005 Supreme Court case called Granholm versus held, that is looked upon as essentially the founding moment of this industry, wine has been, you know, bought and sold all kinds of ways in the United States, both pre prohibition and afterwards. But the most important thing to know is, with all the rules that came out of prohibition, once Prohibition ended, the the amendment to the Constitution that came after that basically said states have the right to set up their own their own markets for wine. And then without getting into the legal use. This supreme court decision basically said great, because we believe that interested states can't interfere with interstate commerce. Folks are also able to ship across state lines from wineries to their customers homes. So a long distance long piece of background to say that our industry as it sits is relatively new, which is kind of an odd thing to think about wine is very old. Ecommerce is very old. And actually, wine access is one of the oldest participants in this space. We've been around more or less, since direct to consumer wine has been permissible. But yeah, at the moment, just by way of scope and scale, we ship several 10s of 1000s or read through through a chain of sellers 10s of 1000s of packages are shipped to customers in all 40 I think it's 45 states where it is legal in principle to do so. So we're almost almost a 50 but not quite there.

Tom Raftery:

There's still some holdouts So just again to clarify, it's just wine. Do you do other things like Sherry's champagnes beers spirits or just wine?

Andrew Walleck:

Great question. So champagne Yes, absolutely sparkling wine is considered more or less the same thing as a as bottled still want. The rules around beer and spirits are actually different and weirdly far more restrictive. There are only I believe eight states where you can ship spirits direct to consumer and beer. It's a different challenge. It's all about being into economics, right? You know who's gonna pay who's going to pay enough for a beer to you know, to make hauling that liquid and a little can across the country worthwhile. Right. So fortified wines again, sometimes yes, sometimes no, there are certain states that have rules about how much alcohol can be in a wine to call it a wine you be shocked how many people out there are trying to pass off what are distinctly non wine products as wine because they would like to sell, you know, pre made cocktails or mixers or, you know, hard kombucha or whatever. There's a big stretching of that definition of wine that we see occurring, but the states tend to have a relatively narrow view on what is wine.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. And give me again, an idea of the scale roughly how many customers you set across 45 states shipping, how many bottles a year?

Andrew Walleck:

Well, I would say that we're into the well into the millions in terms of the numbers of bottles that we shipped each year. In terms of numbers of customers, so we're doing you know, as I mentioned, a couple 10s of 1000s of shipments each month, so, you know, it'll be somewhere in the in the hundreds of 1000s, something like that as a as a rough number.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. Okay, cool. And what kind of challenges are you facing? I mean, you've already hinted at the regulations are a big one with different regulations in different states. Is that it? Or are there other challenges that are unique to shipping wine from your seller out to the end customer?

Andrew Walleck:

It's a really good question. So wine is a super temperamental product. And I don't say that lightly. As you know, in my previous career experience, I had to think about how we would ship you know, 50 500,000 different skews. And I would say that, in many ways, wine is in some ways more challenging. So wine is a product that can be totally ruined by high temperature, by low temperature by too much vibration, by temperatures that are not extreme, but go up and down too quickly. By opening too early opening too late, there are a lot of subjectivities. In other words, around the actual experience, someone has opening a bottle enjoying it with their family or friends. And our goal as a company is to try to, as best we can replicate that experience for customers, we wanted to, we want the experience of opening a bottle of our wine to be just like, you are sitting in the Chateau or you are sitting in the winery room of these, you know, these these wineries that we work with enjoying a glass with the winemaker, him or herself. We want it to be no different. So we think a lot about how to protect that experience. Because you have to imagine, right, we're sending these packages kind of out into the void, you know, with on trucks, and on delivery vans, and

Tom Raftery:

your clubs are delivery vans, they belong to third party logistics companies. So yeah,

Andrew Walleck:

Alonza UPS and FedEx, and yet, they are not always thinking about the customer experience, the wine, the wine drinking customer experience when those deliveries are occurring, bless their hearts. So we have to be thoughtful about how are we going to maximize that experience. I mean, you know, there's a, there's a supply chain, sort of nuts and bolts piece to this, which is I want to minimize returns, I want to minimize, you know, credits, I want to minimize damages, all that good stuff. But truly, if someone opens it and says, this is this is nothing like the description I saw, this is nothing like that, what was promised, they're gonna, you know, they're going to turn off, they're going to, they're going to attract, as we say, and that's going to cause you know, problems with our with our top and bottom line. So that challenge leads us to a couple of really interesting innovations that we have sort of worked on over the years. One of them is, and I don't know of anybody else who does something quite like this. When a customer places an order with us, let's say that, let's say that you lived in Los Angeles, California, we have a warehouse close to you not cheap, not too close in Vacaville, which is in Northern California. And one of the things that our system does is it says wonderful, let's plot the route that that package will take to go from our warehouse in Northern California to your home in Los Angeles. And let's go zip code by zip code and see what will the high and the low temperatures be for that zip code, as the wine makes its way down the coast? You know, from Northern to southern. And let's say great, actually, there's a it's right now is actually the perfect time to be shipping wine, California, with the exception of this past weekend, it's usually pretty temperate. So our system will say, great, you know dealer's choice, you want to ship FedEx, you want to ship ups, whatever, whatever makes the most sense, let's do it. Or the system might say, Ooh, hang on a minute, this route goes through goes down to five, which you know, down down sort of more or less the Center of California, it's going to be hot. This other route, takes the one on one takes the coastal highway where it's much cooler, let's pivot in favor of that because the interior of California is going to be in the 90s this random day or this week. So it thinks about routing. And it also thinks about is it safe to ship the toll Is it is it it's going to be 120 degrees, let's say through some part of the journey. Our system automatically arrests shipments and actually sends an email to the customer with no human intervention and says hey, we are so crazy about making sure that you get this in the right shape and we don't want your wine to cook, because that's the opposite of a good experience. So we're actually going to delay your shipping until next week, when we see a cold front, or it says, Ah, it's going to be, it's been 95 degrees. So we're going to upgrade your packaging, you know, at no cost to be a temperature control pack, and we're going to throw some ice packs in it, and we think it should be totally fine and safe to ship. And that wouldn't be too big of a challenge. If you sort of had you could staff to have humans thinking about it, and you had, you know, really power super powerful, you know, computing machine. To do that, a couple of shipments is not bad. But to do that times, again, 1000s and 1000s of shipments every single week is actually a pretty enormous computing challenge. So we actually had to work really closely with AWS to build these extraordinarily robust data pipelines that will enable us to essentially ask that question times the 1000s. I mean, think of how many zip codes a shipment goes through, right, it's dozens or hundreds, you know, to go from point A to point B, think about multiply that by the number of shipments, you pretty quickly got an interesting data science question. So that was one and that. So you know, a very long story about that, that, you know, I won't go into every detail about but essentially, we had to figure out how to sort of drive a cruise ship size data, you know, through our computing infrastructure, which was the size of a highway tunnel every single day in order to in order to make this work. And in addition to that, as you you've asked, you were asking about what how does alcohol work here. So a universal rule is that you must be over 21 to drink alcohol. And you also must be over 21 to sign for a package that includes alcohol. So that means sort of like when the Cable Guy promises that, they'll show up, if you are promised a delivery date of Tuesday, and it's five o'clock Tuesday, and your truck hasn't shown up yet. Guess what, you're also not very happy. So on top of the temperature challenge, we must also layer in this additional supply chain challenge, which is we must get the wine to a customer at the out on the date, we have promised in the future, we would like to narrow that down to time bands within the day, which is much closer to the kind of Instacart or, you know, Amazon Prime Now experience that customers are getting more and more used to, you know, blessing for making the industry more competitive and moving that customer expectation up. But you know, we'll get there. Because the people want to know, when exactly must I be here to sign to do that we must also layer in not just you know, all the carriers in the United States publish a rate table, and they publish a delivery table so that the delivery table basically says, you know, Tom, if you dropped me a package here in Vacaville, and I inducted into my local facility, it'll take me two days to get to your cousin's house in Los Angeles. So it'll take me three days to get to your buddy in Denver, or if I know where to ship it to, as far as you say, I don't know, Nebraska, that takes four days. And they know more to a pretty good degree. They can guess how far it is. But it turns out, they're not perfect. They're not, you know, always correct. So on top of the framing that our carriers give us, we also we do enough shipping to these to these parts of the world to know off almost precisely zip code by zip code, how long will it actually take. And so we use that we keep track of that zip code by zip code, and we make sure that we're offering customers an accurate expectation. And then there's one last layer that I promised, that's the last layer that I'll overlay on top of this, which is that, you know, this is a low margin business line is not a super, you know, and I had I had misconceptions about this. Before I came in, I thought, I thought that a lot of these brands were just surfing on huge waves of profit. No, it turns out that actually, especially in the you know, marketing platform side, which is what my access really is the margins can be relatively small. So we have to be really thoughtful about things like working capital, right, we can't afford to waste we can't afford to have inventory sitting really for any period of time. So we have a really good plan for when the wind is going to go out so that it gets to the customer's home on time, we have a really good idea of what are the temperature constraints that we're gonna have to be aware of to make sure that we don't send it into the middle of a heatwave and get the wine cooked. And the third piece is we pick up about a Katrina cellars picks up about 1800 to 2000 Purchase Orders individual purchases pickups from from you know our winery partners every year. And we must time them very specifically, so that the pickup occurs well enough in advance that we can, you know, basically cross stock the material between our two coastal warehouses, pick and pack and then hand it off to the tender to the carrier with enough time to get to the carrier's house on the exact day it's been described. So what we don't do is we don't just bring in truckloads and truckloads and truckloads of wine and then burn down the inventory. over a long period of time that would, why, you know, that would be too easy, we wouldn't be not as much of a challenge. Now, but but we actually have figured out over a long period of time, what is the sort of minimum safe distance between the date we must tender to a carrier, given all of the other, you know, the temperature and all the other things that we have to be thoughtful about, and all of the inbound logistics side too, because keep in mind, not every one, you know, not every partner has their stuff store down the street, sometimes these are hundreds of miles away, before they can get picked and packed. So we have to be super thoughtful about the distance from the inbound location to our warehouse, and then the amount of time to get to our customers home from then. And so I equated a bit to sort of hitting a bullet with a bullet when it comes to logistics. This is not a lair, this is just this is just context, the why there's an industry is not really accustomed to sort of just in time. So it's been an interesting and fun challenge to to extract that kind of performance from our, from our partners, and from our, from our, you know, from all the different folks that we work closely with here in the wine industry.

Tom Raftery:

Interesting. It sounds like you mean, you're you're quite customer focused, which is great. If you know, you're a wine access customer. Do you have things like loyalty cards or membership? I assume you do? And are you? Do you follow up with customers? Do you send out surveys, that kind of thing? Do you measure how? Well your customers feel live and served? That's a

Andrew Walleck:

really good question. So we have to always be thoughtful in our industry of there are many constraints in terms of how you can engage and retain customers, when it comes to things like discounts, and, you know, loyalty cards and that kind of thing. There are some folks in our industry who are doing it, and we're always thinking about it, but just it just requires a great deal of caution just because there are what's called tide house laws in in wine, that prevent different parts of the industry from promoting other parts. And we must, we must always be cautious about those because we always want to stay on the right side of the law. But to your other question. Yes, we are, you know, we have a US based customer service team. I'm very proud to say that almost you know that something like 90 plus percent of the time when someone calls we pick up within a couple of rings. And, you know, our goal is always to serve our customers, as best we can. And we do ask for you know, we use we use Zendesk, we use Net Promoter Score surveys to figure out where do we stand, you know, in relation to the rest of our industry. And in relation to what our customers expect, I'm very proud to say that our NPS scores are typically in the in you know, we are in the top couple of percent in the retail industry. So we do seek that feedback. And we also seek feedback from our from our winery and importer partners. So our winery and importer partners have many choices about who they, you know, who they work with, and how you know, and what platforms they use to market their wines. And, you know, we are certainly not the only game in town, but our goal is to be the one that they're most excited to work with. So we I think try to work to the to engage kind of 360 feedback in our industry. And we find that to be an incredibly useful source of insights. Customer Insights are always important. That's something that you know, any customer worth, or any company worth its salt stinking about Sure, but the vendor surveys have been super eye opening. And that's something that we've been doing for the past year or

Tom Raftery:

two. Interesting and really, and if I am as a customer, if I receive a bottle from you, and I think there's an issue with the quality, how is that handled? Because can I then send it back? Given there are so many restrictions around sending alcohol, it is possible

Andrew Walleck:

to send it back to you should show one of the things that makes one access a little different is we stand behind every bottle that we've ever that's ever gone through the platform meaning we don't we don't you know, we don't involve the winery. We don't say hey, well, you know what gives? We basically say if you bestow Tom, if you bought a bottle from us 10 years ago, and you opened it today and said, at some point, it's gotten cooked or it was quartz, you know, from the moment it left the winery I only just found out because I just pulled out of my cellar to enjoy with to enjoy with my steak this evening. We will give you a credit, no questions asked. And that's pretty unique. I think a lot of folks, especially those in our industry, who deal primarily in what's called close outs, which are deep discounts, or, you know, who I think are trying to focus on other parts of the experience would probably not do that, or, or would would insist on proof or something like that. So one of the other ways we try to distinguish ourselves is through our sports we call our satisfaction guarantee, which basically says anything that you don't even if you're just playing it doesn't have to be cooked. It doesn't have to be cooked even if you just don't like it. Even if you just don't feel it lives up to the description that you read. You'll still get a credit or refund as as as most customers prefer. And that's something I'm quite proud of because why I've been learning much more about it, but I'm sort of a newbie to this industry. And, you know, there's it's hard to sometimes communicate through the written word exactly what to expect or what to appreciate about particular wine. And I'll be honest with you, I've opened plenty where I'm sure if a master sommelier was sitting next to me, they would be able to explain Oh, well, you know, listen to, you know, you feel the high notes of, of lemon, and, you know, the, the multiple layers of, you know, different aromatics in here, and I'll be like, to me, just kind of sweet. It wasn't looking for a sweet wine today, which is, you know, that's my own. That's my own wine education, you know, hill to climb, I suppose. But, but you know, customer expectation with a product this nuanced, can be can be tricky. There's really no such thing as product consistency. I mean, even even within an individual bottling of one product, one SKU, you can have a lot of what's called bottle variation, depending on, you know, was this bottle bottled from one of the first barrels off the line or the last, you know, there's, there's a ton of quality, consistency challenges. So we have to be ready for all of us, right. And we have to be receptive to any to customers coming from any part of that, you know, both that wine education experience, both, you know, customers, some of them know, way more than, you know, most of our staff, and some don't know very much at all. And that's okay, either. Either way, we want to meet customers where they are, and make sure that their understanding is we really, this bottle, that bottle, this shipment, that shipment, we really care about the relationship in the experience. And we want you to keep coming back. And we want you to feel like we're the right place to go for wine, because we're trying to give you that experience, less we're giving you this, you know, that every single bottle is always going to be exactly you know, it's gonna blow your socks off, but every single bottle is going to try and if it doesn't, we've got your back. That's kind of the attitude that we try to take. And supply chain is a big way that we that we do that.

Tom Raftery:

Okay, and I'm a bit like yourself, I mean, I originally come from Ireland, and you know, given the the the weather in Ireland, you don't get a lot of grapes growing there. So Ireland doesn't have a long tradition of viticulture, whereas, you know, barley grows pretty well there. So Ireland has a good tradition of drinking beer. Having said that, if I were buying wine from yourselves now, is there any way that, you know, to get over that kind of reluctance that people who are not Somalis might have about what to buy? You know, are you working to help your customers, you know, make suggestions about the wines that they get?

Andrew Walleck:

That's a really great question. So one of the things that we have, you know, I think pioneered and have been working for for the past couple of years is we want folks who think of wine as an alternative to beer and spirits, right? There are some people who, you know, who only who have drink wine, water and coffee, and like that's it right, then there are some people who I think have a broader, a broader diet of, you know, of alcoholic beverages they're interested in, and we want folks who I think are interested or are, you know, at least receptive to wine, to have a way of thinking about like, well, what can I you know, how can I best make use of this product in my, in my house, so to speak, once it arrives. So both on the content side, you know, when the wines are on our platform, we often talk about, you know, here are the top, the top three tasting notes that you might experience, here are the things that you should pair it with, right, if it's a big bold, heavy read, you should have this with lamb or steak or with you know, or with pasta, versus if this is a light, ethereal, you know, white wine, maybe try it with seafood or or shellfish or vegetables. And we try very hard to sort of directionally kind of push people towards here's what's gonna maximize this experience, once it actually shows up in your home. And in addition to that, we we also want that to kind of follow you know, people read the email, they click buy. And the last thing we want is for them to open the bottle, you know, open the package, whatever, you know, a couple days or weeks later and say gosh, like, I remember reading about this and I remember liking it, but I don't quite remember what I'm supposed to do with it. So we had this. We have this really I think quite beautifully but inexpensively designed sort of cardboard. Necker is it think of it as a it's printed on an eight and a half by 11. Essentially on a PDF on super thick, sort of printed material like a cardboard piece. And it has a reproduction of the copy that is the contents that went into the story about the wine and it also has a little tear off where you can say great like the you know, our recommended drinking window for this is 2026 through 2020 or to 2045 something like that. If it was a really pricey first growth or something you can tear it off and put it around the neck of the bottle and put the bottle in your cellar, and then you won't even have to pull it out and look at it, you can just see the neck are sitting there and says, you know, oh, great, I should leave that one alone for at least another couple of years. But the reproduction of the copy is also really important. We want people to remember why they got excited about buying it, we want them to remember what am I expecting this like, Is this something I should bring to my weekend dinner party, or is this something I should put in my cellar for the next X number of years. And so this also presented a kind of interesting supply chain challenge, which is, it's actually it is a it is a non trivial activity to get a printout that includes a high resolution image of the bottle, it includes the sort of synced copies, synced version of the copied includes the other information on the tear out. So we actually had to work with a printing company or a company that makes extremely high end printers. Because you know, to do the volumes we were looking for right times the number of orders, right, you can't, you know, you can't just have an office copier sitting there because the paper wouldn't work, etc. So there are these pickup truck size printers, I'm not joking sitting in both of our warehouses. And there, one of them's actually sitting right at the end of the production line, where all of the pick and pack occurs. And essentially, this we have built this sort of software and fulfillment system where the inserts are printed. And then they go into the going into the packages, just in many cases, just as the package is about to leave facility. Sometimes we stockpile them if we know that there's a lot of there are a lot of you know, orders coming down coming down the line. But for our warehouses, I think the challenge of picking and packing wine along with being a print shop was not something that they were used to or that they were that that was something that they were accustomed to. But after you know, at one point, I think there was a family of mice living in one of the living in one of the printers, that's actually a true story, that we had to figure out how to prevent such issues from, from getting in the way of the insert. So we've had to, you know, I'd say a lot of trial and error. But that's the another good example of something we've had to do that's maybe a little outside of the typical. Outside of the typical, I think if you know, if you open a wine shipment from many different wine clubs, and from many different, you know, from many different sources, you'll open it and it'll be a nice Xerox copy of the, you know, the tech sheet, which is a pretty common common piece of content that exists that describes the technicals. But it's just a technical, it doesn't get you excited about why you're going to drink it. Right. So we actually built software that concatenates the story into the available length for that one pitch, because you're not going to print multiple pages of these cardboard things. That's ridiculous. So we've actually created you know, the software to do that, that combines it with the order. I'm quite proud of it. Because I get feedback all the time, from our customers who say they bring it with them to the dinner party. And they, when they gift it, they take the bottle, and they sometimes even throw the neck or on it and they give it to their you know, their friend and they say, you know, call me in three years when you're opening this joint together. So it's got really cool sort of customer experience dividends that that I feel quite good about, but they weren't easy.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. Sounds like it's great. Okay, we are coming. Now, Andrew, towards the end of the podcast. Is there any question I have not asked that you wish I had, or any aspect of this, that we've not covered off that you think it's important for people to be aware of,

Andrew Walleck:

most of my one of my recent conversations, we talked about the effects of the pandemic, which I feel quite quite, I feel quite strongly that most people are actually quite sick of talking about the pandemic at this point. But I'll but I'll briefly say, during the pandemic itself, our business went through, you know, a huge, a huge evolution, many people were now drinking at home, or we're doing we're trying to enjoy one home, their local restaurants or local purveyors were shut down, of course. And it gave us the chance to be in front of many new people all kinds of at once. And our mission now is how do we keep those we certainly, you know, we want people to get back to their lives. I you know, I also want to go out to restaurants and go to my local wine shop, so I get it. I'm not, you know, I'm not greedy. But our challenge now is how do we keep people interested? You know, how do we keep how do we keep innovating to make sure that the folks who discovered us, you know, maybe not, you know, maybe a little outside of the of our of our sweet spot? How do we ensure that they stick with us, but what are the you know, what are the questions that those folks are having out there, they're now going back out into the world, they're now going on vacations and going to restaurants and I'm sure you know, spending some part of what they would have spent on buying things online or buying wine online specifically on other ways and we have to continue to make sure that we're staying in front of you know, what's, where they are and what they want, keep it exciting, because I think that what a lot of people in our industry are discovering is you know, doing the same just sort of doing the same thing and hoping people just kind of stick by us and can cut it. We have to keep keep pushing the envelope and keeping making it even better and more convenience in order to hang on to the you know, to the folks who discovered us. So it's been a fun, interesting challenge. And I think that we're looking forward to kind of the New Horizons

Tom Raftery:

Cool, cool, super. Under that's been great if people want to know more about yourself or about wine access, or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Andrew Walleck:

Folks can always email me. It's my email address is just a Wallach a wa l l. E CK at one access calm and of course, our website wine access calm is the best place to check us out. I'm quite proud of the content you'll find there. If you want any recommendations on a good bottle of wine, feel free to drop me a note.

Tom Raftery:

Superb, Andrew, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Of course. Thank you, Tom. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks, everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about digital supply chains, head on over to sa p.com/digital supply chain or, or simply drop me an email to Tom Raftery at sa p.com. If you'd like to show, please don't forget to subscribe to it and your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. catch you all next time.

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