Sustainable Supply Chain

The Metaverse's Role In Supplychain - A Chat With IDC's Jan Burian And Lorenzo Veronesi

May 02, 2022 Tom Raftery / Jan Burian / Lorenzo Veronesi Season 1 Episode 221
Sustainable Supply Chain
The Metaverse's Role In Supplychain - A Chat With IDC's Jan Burian And Lorenzo Veronesi
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Show Notes Transcript

What is the Metaverse, and does it have a role in supply chain?

The Metaverse has received lots of headlines in the last couple of years, but does it have a role  to play outside of the spheres of entertainment, and e-learning? Can it be used in supply chain, for example?

To answer these questions and more I invited IDC's Manufacturing Insights thought leaders Jan Burian and Lorenzo Veronesi to come on the podcast to talk about this.

We had a great conversation spanning what the Metaverse is, Metaverse use cases in use today, and when it will move from proofs of concept standard operating procedure! 

I learned loads, I hope you do too...

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Lorenzo Veronesi:

The metaverse could be a very good way to do that because you can enroll people virtually, they can spend one year in your virtual factory without setting a foot in that actual plant. But then when you, they out of university, they already know your factories very well and they can potentially be already ready for work

Tom Raftery:

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the digital supply chain podcast. The number one podcast, focusing on the digitization of supply chain. And I'm your host, global vice-president at SAP Tom Raftery. Hi everyone. Welcome to the digital supply chain podcast. My name is Tom Raftery with SAP and with me on the show today, I have my two special guests, Jan and Lorenzo. Jan and Lorenzo, would you like to introduce yourself maybe Jan go first?

Jan Burian:

Okay. Thank you. Hi Tom. Thanks for having us. All right. My name is Jan Burian I'm with IDC, and, I'm leading, you know, Manufacturing Insights in EMEA and. I'm particularly very happy to talk about the such a big trend, right. Which is a metaverse and also coming up with some sort of thoughts and remarks, especially addressing the impacts and benefits for the pretty supply chain and manufacturing organizations.

Tom Raftery:

Thanks, and Lorenzo....

Lorenzo Veronesi:

Yes, hi, it is Lorenzo Veronesi here, hi!. I'm, uh, associate research director for, uh, manufacturing insights, um, EMEA and, uh, I lead the worldwide does matter factory, uh, research program. So I also happy to be here with you today.

Tom Raftery:

Thank you. Thank you, Lorenzo. And so, I mean, Yon, you teed up the podcast nicely there because we are here today to talk about the. Verse and the metaverse in supply chain and manufacturing. Now let's, let's start by setting a bit of context to my mind. The metaverse is something that will have a big role to play in the likes of gaming and entertainment. So I'd be fascinated to hear how it will also be involved in supply chain and manufacturing. But like I said, let's set a bit of context and start off by saying. What do you define as the metaverse? Cause you know, we've, we've heard, uh, Zuckerberg talk about it. We've heard other people talk about it, but in terms of your cello's, what do you guys define as the metaverse.

Jan Burian:

Six to unmute you actually. All right. So I mean, nowadays, since this is more about a social, about the gaming, maybe about. So you may be like go marketing stuff, presentations. All right. So, so we can start with the IDC tape or ID out the way, how IDC defines the metaphors. Right? So, and it's also always a challenge of course, but let me put it like that, that the metaverse is a highly immersive future environment that blends the physical and digital to drive shared sense of presents, interaction and continuity across the multiply spheres of work. That was the, our, our official definition. Sorry for saying it like this or this way, but this is something we have to do. Right. Because we need to align with our colleagues based, let's say, or on the road. Right. So we have like a unique perspective on that. But the other thing is that, uh, you know, we believe that there's going to be a place where other people. You know, and AI and died and to display, create socialized consumer and work. Right. So when could also consist of many persistent worlds that, so that's a one thing. Right. But, but. A lot of, I mean, a lot of people are companies that still looking at the matter as really as a real, like a social social Bible of something, or even like industrial players, they are stepping into the materials more for the purposes of, I would say market their solutions, they brands and so on. Right. So this is what we call like a gaming metaverse. I mean in, in one of my research, I mean, Lorenzo, we call, we call this like a civil Memorial psychometrist for everyone, right. And the side of power, this is like a power power of reality, which is, which never sleeps as saying like this. And that's user generated content and that's also fully function functioning economies, right. Based on the cryptocurrencies. So that's the, that's the deal? I think I would say that the three crypto. And if the spike a big role in a, in a current metaverse right. Unlike the industrial metaverse, which is more something based on the, I would say real life flight environment, right. Connected, grew alive. Right. And this is a different from the, this, the, the, the different from a, from a gaming stuff, because of course, it's, it's 100% virtual. Of course it could be some parallels if you want to have some connection through a real road, but it's not, this is the part, this is not like. But the, the, the, the point there, right? Uh, on the other hand, industrial metal rails is sort of like a comprehensive digital twin of an, you can come from the asset to the production environment, to the, to the whole enterprise or the factory enterprise. And, uh, and it, it could continue to the, let's say the whole very, not just the supply chain, but the value chain, which is much bigger. Right? So just from this, from a source, I would say, source of material. Until the, to the consumer and to the, the, and could also consider the entire life cycle of the, of the product. Right. So it's, it's total phyco power reality. All right. And so, so, so, so, so, so that's, that's, that's where we see the difference, right? Between the gaming and industrial.

Tom Raftery:

Okay, Lorenzo, anything.

Lorenzo Veronesi:

Yes. I'm 1.2, add to Yas comment. Is that, um, what the, what, what, how the metaverse will differ from, from a mayor? Into very large quotation marks or simple digital twin it's. Uh, it's uh, it's, it's just a slightly different thing because while the digital twin is life like representation of a real life object in a virtual work, we were told ward, uh, the metal bars. It's really a place where, where people and. And the digital entities of any kind, uh, will interact in a, in a very active eight autonomous way as well. So, um, we can have, for example, uh, uh, digital representation of a factory inside this digital representation of factory. We'll scan subject and looks at object, analyze what's going on and maybe learns from it in a totally independent way. So in a way it's, it's, it's, it's just, it's just a matter of space that, that includes a lot of other different processes and the interactions between human and digital entities that is not the digital twin. So the digital twin will be just like a, like, like a makeup artist. Point zero and all that, the first, the beta version of a mattress, if you honor the very early concept authorization, but fundamentally the same way. I mean, the telephone lines are to the internet. It's just the basic to which we start building, building this, this, this new object,

Tom Raftery:

Okay. Very good.

Jan Burian:

maybe about one point here, because of course, I mean that. I mean, you know, we analyze digital twins for a long time, you know, collecting the use cases and stuff. But the thing is that, I mean the current digital twin doesn't have to be, let's say, uh, very appealing as far as like that child. It's not like a sexy thing. Sometimes you can have a, I'd say the 3d model three object looks good. Right. But if you're like a digital twin of the process, for example, It could be sort of like, uh, even just like, uh, you know, a bunch of numbers or figures, right? So while the, the, the, the, the metaverse itself is, it should be also, I would say visually. All right. So it's like, like a real road life driving this. I mean, so we would want us to, I mean, we walk across the street, you know, we look at the buildings, we can step inside the buildings and, and, and this is also what the real life is based on, right. On that current top or type of experience. Of course, that's a, that's a big question. I mean, I mean, how big, the detail in that metaverse should be, if you should be able to recognize. Let's say to one millimeter, small object, or you start with something bigger than one meter or like that child or one foot. Right. So, uh, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's another thing. Right. But as long as I said, I still receive one current digital twin approach or Philadelphia philosophy more as a platform as is very, very, very start of, uh,

Lorenzo Veronesi:

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe I'm here. I can start bringing a real life example, which is, which is not the metaverse of course, but. Followings in that direction. And, um, and there's an example, for example, uh, of, uh, of, um, of initiatives that BMW is driving with a number of partners, including, uh, India, they call it the omnivorous digital factory with which pretty much it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a very high, granular high-fidelity representation of the factory. For represent and, uh, and communicate like data that are collected for all the relevant, uh, database that can be, uh, that can be, that can be synchronized together. And this is, I think is a powerful, uh, use case because, uh, one of the key, uh, sort of, uh, um, discussion we were having with, with companies, um, Involved in this, the digital representation or the factory digital simulation, is that how much we should go into our lifelike kind of representation as the onset, uh, in order to have a digital twin of your factory. Don't try to have a very, very, very, uh, through full style representation status. When you, for example, need to show how our machine is built and how our technicians should operate to fix a machine. We can use it for training purposes and so on, so forth, but it's not needed. And, and it always starts an argument. Or like when you reach a very fateful topological description of the asset layout and. They apply in the factory. That's that's enough. So, you know, which machine is connected with which, and the what's state the way, which machinery of life and how they're moving, like, uh, against each other. But that's, that's it, you don't have to have like a, like a picture like fidelity, but for example, this case have been, is interesting because they also released, um, they call it of the, uh, Synthetic object recognition, um, data set for industry. So they create a number of various real life object images for everything that is in a factory for AI to be learned using the digital representation. So you don't have. It would come as a, your real factory and look at, for example, at cards or moving parts in this case, or a factory in our car factory, maybe this is a will. This is a body-wide, this is a worker. This is like, uh, a Carta or a bean you don't need that you can do all virtually. So that's, that's, uh, I think it's an example of how we, we see already a business value coming from today's mindset. That goes in that direction and getting greater and greater fidelity. This is for example, for training AI models. And that's a sort of good evolution from the concept of how. How, how, how the fidelity should be, should be how much fidelity should we should have. Actually they're real. The example here shows that yeah, the more, the better really, and that's something that can drive their, the development of this metadata concept, uh, in a factory, uh, just because you need to train AI in a digital world and so on, so forth. So that's already a starting point from, from this evolutionary trajectory.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. And what are BMW using that factory for? Uh, you know, why, why habit in the metaverse what's the, what's the advantage they gained from it? What problem are they solving?

Lorenzo Veronesi:

I mean, not in the metaverse yet, or they are increasing their, the life-like representation, other factors.

Tom Raftery:

Okay.

Lorenzo Veronesi:

To understand how it works better and to help other companies too, for example, in this case to train their visual systems or AI AI tools that could do every sort of things from quality management to process management and decision-making worker support and sorts of, um, but it's the idea is that I need a very grounded. Um, representation of my factory for this to happen. And when you have that, while you're already one step further towards the metabolic direction, this is sort of the concept. So metaverse just to put it. Bluntly is not the pie in the sky. Something that we see it's going to happen. Somehow we see already company putting the steps together that are not as yet, of course matter, it doesn't exist in, in itself, but there's a direction. Uh, while we can see as a, as a, as a, as a version of the metaverse in the future.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. Okay. Uh, John, anything to add in?

Jan Burian:

Yeah. I mean, uh, you just discuss the specific BMW case. Right. And I agree with you with Lorenzo, right? So that, that, that, that industrial. Rhoda science doesn't exist at the moment. Right. And I think it's with any other technology, even like your that's like similarly for the internet, I tried at the beginning, there are only a couple of companies there and, you know, it was expanding when the people, organizations, businesses, they found the value in it right. In the intro, in the inductions collections and so on. So that's the one thing the other. Are they the use cases in general, because we will, or like, I'll ask a lot about the, you know, like, okay, there's a matters. That's, that's, that's more, could be more like a bubble. What could be the, the, the practical let's say use cases. So impact benefits for the organization, why they should buy it should matter. Right. And I think that there are also maybe to two angles here. One is that if it's like a company itself, let's say us quality, let's say. All right. So w w like, like BMW is doing, but the, also the others, some surely Lorenzo is coming in with coming up with some, some more examples then, uh, that's, that's sort of like an easier right to, if you have anything under your control, you have your own source of data. Whatever while we're on, it starts to be, let's say more difficult and it'll say more challenging is coming outside of beyond that. Right. So, and, but this is, but that's the, I do maybe the bigger highway too. I mean, it's the could be found. Right? So went to the supply chain and entire value chain. I mean talking about it, formal, this clear it's about, uh, the layout performance mutual interactions, simulations of the, uh, machines that are playing. That's the that's that's key. Right? So it's a lot about the simulation isn't, as I said, it could be also used for some, let's say, learning for off, uh, AI models, right. Machine learning based models. The next thing would be, uh, the human behavior or simulation. Right? So so-called like avatars of the, of the real people, real worker, you know, so you can analyze. I ever obese avatars or December task was also even like a do virtually in, uh, in, in, in that digital world. Right. So even, even it could be like, uh, looking at the performance of the machine so it could be adjusting the machines, whatever then, uh, and then when it goes a little bit further, I then let's say, uh, we can, the organization will use this for the material components, service, supplier assessment. All right. So these, these capabilities of the suppliers could be also demonstrated in the, in the metaverse, right? So it's like when a real person comes to your factory or to your, I don't know, like a, like a yard, whatever, you know, and, and shows its capabilities, uh, on the, I would say, uh, Uh, the, the, uh, how capable is to, to deliver some things, some surveys, whatever, you know, so, and they say, this is good. This will be down total in total virtual way, right in to the student, to the search. So search on a certain extent. Uh, it's pretty much the same thing with the, uh, Asset management and maintenance simulation training, right. It could be even useful. The let's say selection of the service provider or providers, right. That could be the whole process. Why? Because the provider could also demonstrate in a virtual way, the way, how. Uh, how he, she doesn't matter who would maintain certain technology. Right. And it could be also demonstrated in the, in, in, in that, in that world. Right. So without the need of traveling, that's also, I mean, I don't really like that. Let's say sort of like a greenwashing thing, but in this, from this perspective, you can also save a lot of, let's say carbon. For the eliminated, a lot of like traveling or interactions, you know, being totally virtual. Of course, uh, the, the, I would say the carbon footprint of the data centers, that's, that's a different, that's a different story story. Right. But if you look at the, at, at this like really like that physical presents and, uh, the factory, wherever it is. Right. So it could be definitely, uh, reuse, try to resist.

Tom Raftery:

Okay, so you're on mute.

Lorenzo Veronesi:

Yeah, sorry. I would like to add one element to your comment. And that's also where you talk about training. I mean, one of the key challenges for companies today, is widely discussed in the industry is, uh, is at hiring, uh, while they call university plus one, um, uh, talents. I mean, I mean, people were fresh from university, but they have already won one year and a half, two years of practical experience in a field. And that sort of surprises a dilemma for company, because say, we don't want to train anybody again then goes to work for the competition, you know, so who's going to do the, who's going to do this plus. Uh, time and training and. And the metaverse could be a very good way to do that because you can enroll people virtually they can spend one year in your virtual factory without setting a foot in that actual plant. But then when you, they out of university, they already know your factories very well and they can, uh, they can potentially be already ready for work. So for, for the hiring and training purposes, and they say that in addition to what Yana said, but that's also quite powerful.

Tom Raftery:

Okay.

Jan Burian:

And then I don't. Yeah. I mean, that does number of use cases, right? So, uh, such a, like a collaborative research and development, right? So this is something we are thinking. Yeah. I mean, even current materials could be, could we already use, right. So collaborate together, develop the solutions. Right? So reducing time, time to market significantly. Uh, it, so also the, and even like a simulation of testing of the products and service. We, they, uh, conducted in that, in that virtual interview turn environment and also the, the, the feedback from the, or that could be, uh, the, the feedback from me from a users or from the potential customers, buyers could be also, uh, collected through our Alma or be conducted in with all within this, uh, the neutral around.

Tom Raftery:

Okay, I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate here because the whole idea of collecting feedback. I mean, we can do that today. Survey is with, you know, any number of, of ways of getting feedback. Why would we, what advantage do we get collecting that feedback through the medical.

Jan Burian:

Yeah. Of course you can collect the feedback even today. That's, that's, that's not a thing I bought. If it should be more like, uh, you know, sorry. Uh, the do do do, uh, any regular team can also interact with the product, right? You can, you can also in a real life real time, you, uh, the companies, organizations could also track and analyze the behavior or the way how the product is being used, right. Without any. Any, you know, like a S like a survey, so I'd be like, oh, I go receive it like a number of so many surveys via email aside from different organizations, you know, asking us to, to provide with some, uh, with the user experience. And so wall I ended up questioning is, I mean, it's like one thing, it's like a one-shot thing. Right. So we've just put it in and just send it that, that, that that's it. Or even some, some, maybe more COVID people. Th th someone won't go in and me and these are going to provide also some sort of like a written feedback. Right. But let's say , or could also can provide, I would say more, again, like more, it could be like a morning to detail. It could be, and this feedback could be analyzed from a broader perspective. Right. So we can really, and especially when it's come to the industrial road. Right. So when we talk about it, I don't know. Uh, stuff like, uh, uh, like, like, uh, some, some virtual let's say surveys addressing the consumer. So millennials it's a one thing. Right. But if it's not really like, uh, I think the, like, like a new service or new application for the industrial use. I, so that, that, that, that that's where the, the, the metaphor. So this virtual environment could provide much more value than traditional. Sorry, sorry. Type of feedback.

Tom Raftery:

Okay, Lorenzo.

Lorenzo Veronesi:

Yeah. I just wanted to add, to compliment what Tiana said to your point. Um, what is something industry award companies already struggling to get a lot of feedback from how their products are operated and used? Um, they, for example, connected the tools like connected drill. No, you have this, this modern tools where you can pretty much know where it is, read it, you know, the story. But at one of our Nike feature for the manufacturer. So these tools it's that they know exactly how they use when they use the, how the performance, the different conditions. And pretty much they can embed all this information back in the design and innovation process for the organization. So that is saying maybe the feature is never used, so it probably not accessible in the right way or just not relevant. And it's also for, so they get an enormous amount of data from how the product is used and by whom and in which conditions. So that's already very vulnerable. So with the metadata, you just get more data about that. Uh, more, more Morgan right-hand one other element. It could be, for example, in the consumer goods, a lot of manufacturing companies are establishing like their own stores and we're working with some CPG company who did their own sales channel is storing stories. And of course they don't want to compete with the big retail guys. They just want more, the value they get. I think there are some new sales from these stores is marginal like theater, you know, buying something, you know, compared to the total amount of size. But what they have is like a lab where they can track what happens when they use or interact with that product. So for example, you see which, which product does select the more often they, they have a lot of information that they can collect. They can come at us. And so it's pretty much like, like, like, like. Becomes a, like, like a, like a huge sensor that they throw in the market and see what's going on with our products. Because of course I lack this last mile visibility because the retailers on the data typical. So this sentiment of ours could be a way for them to expand that the understanding of how the consumer works. Really. So let's say that'd be the outside, but if you take this perspective easily, the industrial war, that the same thing, you can see how they use or operate your machines. Walk around your products. And, uh, you know, if they're having any challenges and troubling, uh, troubles in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in the training and the setup of the machines and you, you can have all this visibility. So of course this is not the only benefits, but there's one of them.

Tom Raftery:

Okay.

Jan Burian:

On top of that. I mean, there's a, there's a one year alley. Don't touch it tried. And this is the technology, right? The hops software, hardware behind that. And so of course today, I mean, uh, AI, we VR it's dominates, uh, I mean, you know, currently, right? So even from my, from our perspective, it's not necessary at the moment. Right. You can step into the towers, you know, like foodie, who to screen will be. It's also the thing or I, but, but the, maybe the future future proves if that AR VR, you know, type of things, uh, for, to improve or increase that the user experience is going to be something I'd say, really say, you're moving this ahead and come in with someone set up a significant, significant benefit for the , especially in this, uh, in that, uh, manufacturing. But it's good thing is good thing. Is that, I mean, uh, having the headset, right? You don't have to, you don't have to be in a production or production area, you know, so like, but you can sit in the mini office somewhere, you know, and then, then you can just, you know, benefit from, uh, from that experience. And so, so maybe also some say sort of like, uh, issues with, uh, your ability of the, of the Hess. I had sets in that industrial environment, just, you know, maybe this is not a fate, that they don't be a thing, you know, for this, but we see that the VR headset volumes grew by almost like a 400%. Uh, and the third, a quarter off or a 21, 20 21, I then IEC also predicts that it will top three to many on per year by 2025. Right. So that's, that's going to be, it's going to be huge. Right? So the two potential how to leverage the, we are it's it's it's it is growing

Lorenzo Veronesi:

and it's there.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. Cool. Cool. If we look ahead. So we've said that the medical. It hasn't arrived yet, but trends are going in that direction. When do you think it will become the norm for manufacturers or supply chains to have let's say a digital twin in the metaverse or some presence in the metaverse and need to be kind of standard operating procedure.

Jan Burian:

Yeah. So sorry, I'm looking for some boat for some both ends, right? Because I mean, it's like a digital twin. I mean, we talk about the digital been for how long, five years, maybe something like that, is it? Yeah. Is it a standard or we not? No. Right. So it's it's and it's growing. I mean, as, as, as we see the. Uh, the, the projects or discussions in a manufacturing environment it's still far from being a standard. Right. Right. I mean, I'm talking about the person that they've connected via digital track with the, I mean, there'll be the real object and going beyond to the, to the process factory environment. Right. So if that not there, so maybe that's going to be. I don't want these, uh, these against, uh, some predictions of my colleagues, but personally I would say, could be like another 3, 4, 5 years. And digital twin would be maybe excepted in the, let's say, larger scale. Right. And then, so the, the, the industrial metamours in this way, that it's, it would be a really. Useful beneficial for 40 organizations, meaning that also the entire supply chains should be already there. Right. Because otherwise, again, looking at the four walls, you can do it with even like today's tools. So it's not like real, like the metaverse could be, could be even 10 where I worked over 10 years, I would say. Yeah.

Lorenzo Veronesi:

Yeah. I mean, if you look at the, the press releases, um, QA has, uh, already released, um, um, uh, And what I'm doing of understanding with a unity to build, uh, a metal factory, uh, concept actually, uh, which is they define a digital twin of an actual factory supported by a metadata platform. So I haven't checked exactly what made it mean better. They see if you see this is already being built now, uh, according to the Presley's, obviously as the answer is probably a lot of times, so there are two, two main points. One is when a like a, some form of a metaverse would be put together and some company will step into that. Uh, maybe just for marketing purposes. And then there's another timeframe when you see this is going to become. like a, uh, alleged way to which company or that company will use to operate the process with. So I will say that in one case is probably some years and the other case it's probably. Probably double-digit, uh, a way into the double digit, uh, framework, let's say in terms of year. So I think it's 20, 30 plus plus plus. So it's difficult to make is dependent on so many things that it's difficult to make a real assumption. But I think that the point is is that this is happening mentally. We see the convergence of things. I feel like, you know, now we see a lot of art. I mean, on internet or LinkedIn, Facebook, wherever you see a lot of these images where you see like some magazines in the seventies or sixties or eighties forecasting, the advent of the smartphone, let's say in the future, we will have a tool that takes voice and has videos. And, uh, and they really saw that convergence happened because of was very clear. They saw low happening. They had this vision. Of course it doesn't look like a smartphone, but it conceptually. So we are in the same phase, we are conceptualization conceptualizing something. don't know exactly how it's going to be because that's, that's way beyond impossible. But I think that that's the stage as we are now.

Tom Raftery:

Okay, super folks. We're coming towards the end of the podcast. Now, is there any question that I haven't asked that you wish I had, or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think.

Jan Burian:

Yeah, maybe I think, I think you've covered it pretty well. The thing we watched a little bit was the, you know, that the crypto and Ft, you know, this, this, this, this, this is part of that because course. Folio gaming. My it's like, uh, you know, it's like a, it's like a part of that already. Right? So in, in manufacturing, but also in supply chain environment, manufacturing environment, this could be, uh, this could either be the way to go paying. Payments photo for services, for example. Right. So, I mean, in a real life, this Odour is some, let's say like a bite for us, which are enabling this, right. So we can have a, let's say not equipped peer to peer call and you can, you can provide, uh, the, let's say the pain meds, right? W. W while I was speaking or talking or, or discussing with the, with a service person, like in a service center, who's, who's guiding someone in a factory. Right. So, so, so, so I think that's, that's also totally one aspect. We didn't touch that that much. And I, but that's definitely something which comes to the, comes to the discussion when the, these metaphors concepts are going to evolve. Right. Yeah,

Lorenzo Veronesi:

of course. Yeah, it's, it's intrinsically linked with R three and crypto NFT. All these concepts are, are going to be deeply embedded within the metaverse vision. And of course you see that so many variables that is difficult to really, uh, access, encapsulate a timeframe. That's, that's the thing, one, one element that has to be considered. And, and, and, um, and one thing I think is missing PR is like, what. Regular company should be doing now, um, how they should, uh, they should invest, uh, how they should take what we're saying now. I think that's an important point. And, and, and, and one thing I would suggest to this is what we said to, to, to our customers is that keep your, keep your mind off. And started trying to see if you can pay, put a foot in the door because maybe it's not going to materialize the way we you think is going to be, but it will happen somehow. And if you have already some digital skills on this side, that would make your accompany in, in a, in a, in a better position. And then also this other issue we've seen that, uh, all in all and the amount of challenges account on the table for a manufacturing company out solar. So huge, like supply chain, uh, disruption, your material doesn't come, you cannot ship what you produce when you produce it to shut your factory. You know, w we see happening day in, day out today, this accelerated disruption that is really bringing the, the industry, a lot of industry to a standstill and making the day-to-day business environment very, very challenging, and really calling in a wage for company to look at some way, some other way forward to generate. And that could be the virtual world. So maybe not today, not tomorrow, but the day after tomorrow. Some company we say, yeah, that's a lot of value to be captured there. So why we are still sticking to like a sourcing material, processing them and delivering them while we can do a lot, create a lot of value in a totally digital world. And that's something that companies will, will have to think about in the future, because this is like a blue ocean opportunity for, for, for, for enormous rewards maybe, and company needs to have like at least a vision.

Tom Raftery:

Excellent. Great superb Lorenzo Yan. That's been really interesting if people want to know more about yourselves are about IDC or the metaverse or any of the topics we discussed today, where would you have me direct them, maybe younger.

Jan Burian:

Yeah, so they can follow the idc.com uh, page, uh, there's some, uh, research publications already to be, be seeing, you know, and we download it. Uh, also you're going to follow us on our LinkedIn profiles because we. Publish a regular rate, the hour for leadership, not just on the Matamoros, but also on the supply chain. Um, and yet the smart manufacturing and sustainability

Lorenzo Veronesi:

in particular.

Tom Raftery:

Cool Lorenzo.

Lorenzo Veronesi:

Yeah, I, I, I cannot really see anything different than, than the answer because he caught everything, but that's, that's pretty much our main channels. And I encourage everybody. Who's interested in what we, and we covered much more than the metaverse of course, in our research actually, uh, uh, Metro, as in this case will be really a cherry on top of what we cover. So, um, encourage people to just get in touch with us and, uh, and, uh, and investigate. Well, we can do.

Tom Raftery:

Super super folks has been great. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast.

Jan Burian:

Thank you.

Lorenzo Veronesi:

Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to you, Tom.

Tom Raftery:

Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about digital supply chains, head on over to sap.com/digital supply chain, or, or simply drop me an email to Tom dot Raftery @sap.com. If you'd like to show, please, don't forget to subscribe to it in your podcast application at choice to get new episodes, as soon as they are published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks catch you all next time.

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