Kristian Ronn: 0:03

For an average business, 90% of emissions in their net zero target are actually located in their supply chain. So in order to succeed with those net zero targets, that would bring the world to net zero, they need to succeed in decarbonizing their supply chains, which is a difficult task. That is the main reason why most companies today are actually failing on their net zero targets.

Tom Raftery: 0:32

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the Digital Supply Chain Podcast, the number one podcast focusing on the digitization of supply chain, and I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Hi everyone, and welcome to episode 376 of the digital supply chain podcast. My name is Tom Raftery and it's fantastic to have you joining me today as we dive into the most current and exciting developments in the supply chain world. To all of this podcast's wonderful supporters, I can't express my gratitude enough. Your involvement and backing are the lifelines that keep this podcast thriving. And for those of you who haven't yet joined the supporter community, here's your chance to be part of something special. Supporting the Digital Supply Chain podcast is easy and affordable, with options starting from just three euros or dollars a month. Less than the cost of your latte, this modest contribution can significantly impact my ability to continue delivering top quality content. To join, simply click on the support link in the show notes of this or any episode, or head over to tinyurl. com slash dscpod. Now, without further ado, I'd like to introduce my special guest today, Christian. Christian, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Kristian Ronn: 1:52

Yes, of course. So I'm Kristian. I'm the CEO and founder of Normative. And we provide software for large enterprises to help them account for their full carbon footprint in their operations and quite crucially in their supply chains. And I've been doing carbon emissions accounting for the past 10 years. And before that I did maths and philosophy and artificial intelligence within academia. So that's briefly about myself.

Tom Raftery: 2:23

Okay, Kristian and . Why, why did you set out on this journey? You had a nice, comfortable job, I gotta think in academia working on maths and philosophy. What was the kind of, uh, trigger to make you get outta that comfortable space and go into the world of entrepreneurship?

Kristian Ronn: 2:46

Yeah, I feel like maybe you have some morbid type of, of self hatred, if you go into entrepreneurship, because being an entrepreneur is, is never easy as I think most people will tell you, but it is also like the core way of having an impact. So within academia and especially philosophy, that's something that have influenced my life quite a bit. So even from sort of an early age when I decided to become a vegetarian at the, at the age of seven, I sort of asked myself the question, like, why did I actually make that decision? What were the core values this type of decision was based on? And then a few years later when we got access to the internet, I started to Google around and, and, and hang out on, on Wikipedia and web forums. I think I was 11 years old, 12 at the time. And the I sort of found out that that decision of becoming a vegetarian that was probably based on a philosophy called utilitarianism. So I discovered the philosophy of a Australian philosopher called Peter Singer, and he essentially argued that, what we actually ought to optimize in society is the wellbeing of sentient beings. And that really resonated with me. And then a few years later, I found a paper by a Swedish philosopher called Nick Bostrom, and he argued that the main thing we should be concerned with, if we actually care about the welfare and wellbeing of sentient beings is to reduce global catastrophic risks and existential risks, because essentially they have the capacity of not just destroying us, but all future generations as well. And I actually ended up working for Nick's Research Institute at the University of Oxford. But back then, that was a few years before the Paris Agreement. And some of the, some of the momentum we're seeing a climate change and, and climate change obviously being one of those global catastrophic risks that we're facing right now. I, I sort of thought to myself that, how can I have an impact on this? And then it sort of occurred to me that in order for countries to achieve their climate targets, it's actually companies within the jurisdiction of those countries that need to get the job done. And they do not just need to get the job done for their own operations. They quite crucially need to get that job for their supply chains as well. So that was 10 years ago and, and I thought that, you know, surely someone else is working on this and turns out that nobody else was working on it. So that's, that's why I left academia to, to start Normative. And I think it it's just a general pattern of externalities in general, regardless if it's climate or if it's pollution or if it's something else. Externalities typically happen because if I have a transaction with, with you, I mean, if, if I buy your product, Tom, then that is logged on some sort of, you know, general ledger, right? But there might be other effects happening to a third per person that is not logged anywhere. And often those effects sort of happen deep inside and deep down in, in the value chains and supply chains where they're invisible. So you need to make carbon visible in order to have an impact on the problem. So that was the core reason why, why I sort of left the comfortable job in, in academia to, to start Normative and, yeah, that, that, that was quite, quite and right, and I think there's a few stories to tell in terms of entering into a market that is not fully ready. But that, that is the answer to your question, I guess. Uh,

Tom Raftery: 6:38

Yeah. Market making is never easy, I gotta think. Right. But tell me two things come outta that. A, you mentioned supply chain, and that's great given that this is the Digital Supply Chain podcast, but A, why are supply chains so important, and B, just maybe a brief 1 0 1 on what externalities are, in case anyone is not familiar with the concept.

Kristian Ronn: 7:04

Yeah, so let's start there. So the concept of externality, it's, it's a concept in economics essentially when two person engage in some sort of transaction that is obviously consensual between those two parties. There might be a third party or a fourth party or someone else that are affected by that transaction and they actually didn't agree to that consensually and they're negatively affected, or that's called negative externalities when they're negatively affected. And climate exchange, I would argue it's just one big negative externality. Because for instance, let's say I buy electricity from you and you generate that electricity through coal power

Tom Raftery: 7:49

Yeah. Yeah.

Kristian Ronn: 7:50

on the other side of the planet that might contribute to desertification. It might contribute to horror hurricanes where people have to flee their homes or it might contribute to wildfires that, that are like actually killing people and killing nature. So that's what an externality is. And then I think the first part of your question, if you could repeat that

Tom Raftery: 8:10

supply chains. Why are they important?

Kristian Ronn: 8:12

supply chains. So how I think supply chains are quite critical because often these externalities happen like upstream or downstream in a supply chain. And we crunched the data actually last year for the big UN COP Climate Conference we're going this year as well as a part of the Swedish business delegation. But we looked at the data and because some people who are in climate circles have probably heard like the Gap Report, that there is a gap in terms of commitments from countries. And we wanted to look at what are the commitments from corporates, what do they amount to? So we looked at 1000 companies with a net zero target. And if they succeed in those net zero targets it would reduce almost 80% of global emissions. So that's just a thousand companies. We actually have 15,000 companies with some sort of net zero target. So it might be that we have enough targets to achieve our goals. And that sounds like great news. It almost sounds too good to be true. And when it sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good for the to be true because the catch here is that for an average business, 90% of emissions in their net zero target are actually located in their supply chain. So in order to succeed with those net zero targets, that would bring the world to net zero, they need to succeed in decarbonizing their supply chains, which is a difficult task. That is the main reason why most companies today are actually failing on their net zero targets. It's because they're having a hard time decarbonize those supply chains. And those supply chains are often composed of small and medium sized enterprises that have never engaged with carbon before, which is a part of this sort of challenge, making it difficult and, and one of the challenges that we're trying to solve.

Tom Raftery: 10:16

Okay, so to kind of put this in perspective. Every company is part of a supply chain. You're a supplier and you're a purchaser. For a typical organization, you say 90% of your carbon footprint, more or less, depending on the organization, the industry, et cetera, et cetera. But on average, 90% of an organization's carbon footprint comes from its supply chain. 10% doesn't that 10% the company can work on internally by electrifying everything, switching to renewable energy provider and you know, et cetera, et cetera. But the other 90% they can't. But that other 90% is made up of companies like the original company. If they work on that 10% themselves, then, then they help reduce that 90%. That's more or less what we're saying, right?

Kristian Ronn: 11:14

That, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And it sort of makes sense when you think about it, that it would be 90%. So let's imagine a laptop retailer and, and you buy a laptop from that retailer. There's a few percentage points that are like electricity for heating for the store. But the rest is okay. This laptop computer was transported, it was assembled, there were mining operations. And all of those operations contributed a significant amount of energy and greenhouse gases. So what you essentially need to do in order to decarbonize, you need to have two things. You need a way to exchange data with your suppliers, where that exchange is made as easy and simple as possible. That's the first thing. Then secondly, you need to incentivize decarbonization in some sort of way. And it could be either a carrot or a stick, and I think it depends on what type of supplier it is, right? You can say, we're not gonna buy from you unless you have a net zero commitment, and unless you report on those numbers, that would work. You can also use the carrot and say, okay, a minimum requirement that you at least report the data to you. Now when we know that you their supplier have non-renewable electricity, and you have not electrified your vehicle fleet. And now we can put some sort of incentive for you to do so. It could be a carrot like maybe we help pay and finance some of that. You know, maybe we give you a low interest loan of, of some kind. But none of those activities are possible unless you sort of build a network or a carbon network. So that's actually what we're launching officially this, this week, what we call the carbon network that we have been working on for several years to make that communication across supply chains possible. So all of a sudden you can make a concrete to decarbonize your, your supply chain, because right now it's not concrete. So when a large retailers or large brands report on their, so-called Scope Three Footprint. So Scope three is, is basically the supply chain based footprint. All of that reporting is done using like industry averages. And so-called like spend based methodology. So that means that, okay, if I spend this many US dollars on something, then I assume that it will release this much carbon emission. The problem with that sort of methodology is that there's no way to reduce emissions. The only way to reduce emissions is to reduce spend. But, but you need an alternative. And that alternative is to actually engage directly with your supplier, collaborate with them around like, what can we do in order to reduce emissions together and be successful together?

Tom Raftery: 14:11

Oh, okay. And Tell me a little bit about this carbon network that you're talking about. I'm assuming that's to kind of close the data gap that you referred to. It's to have people on a, a platform where everyone is sharing carbon data and you have kind of a single source of carbon truths. Would that be a fair summary?

Kristian Ronn: 14:34

Yes, so it's both the data gap. But there is also a business execution gap. So the data gap is not having accurate carbon footprint from your supply chain. Actually something that we have seen and, and talked about like for a really long time is what we call the accuracy gap. Most corporate carbon footprint reports are actually wrong because they don't take the supply chain properly into account. So on average there's a gap or under reporting of, of 60%. So that's what we call the accuracy gap. But if you get that accurate data from your supplier, you can solve what we refer to as the business execution gap, which is how can we strategically execute on our net zero plan? And well, if you have the data, you can, for instance, decide that okay, we are willing to spend a bit of our budget to help all of our suppliers get renewable electricity if they don't have renewable electricity in their grid. Some of them we might even finance the procurement of, of solar panels and installation of wind power or whatever it might be. We might incentivize them to electrify what they can electrify. But unless you have the proper data, you don't know and you can't like really close that business execution gap

Tom Raftery: 16:36

Sure, sure, sure. I mean, it's, it's all about figuring out where to prioritize and you won't know where to prioritize unless you've got access to the data. And to your point then, how are your suppliers going to know their carbon footprint?

Kristian Ronn: 16:57

Yeah, that, that is a great question, and I think that's where we have failed. And I don't mean us necessarily, I mean, we have failed in the world to, to sort of, make it appealing to suppliers. to, to report this carbon data. And if you look at the sort of standardized supply chain questionnaire, it, it's often some sort of form that you send to your supplier and tell them, please fill in your carbon emissions here.

Tom Raftery: 17:27

Yeah.

Kristian Ronn: 17:27

The problem with that approach is that they will have no clue how to calculate their carbon emission in the first place. So they will probably like blank on that answer or maybe make something up even just to respond to that questionnaire. So that's why sort of the industry benchmark is 2- 3% response rate on carbon emissions for those questionnaires. And then even if they have responded, you can't really trust that it's the correct data. So our approach is not a survey based approach alone, it's also a calculation based approach. So if that supplier turns out to be like an SME that have never calculated their carbon emissions before we provide them with that core calculator so that they can report back carbon emissions in, in a simple way. And if you're an SME, like going through sort of the step by step in our carbon calculator, like takes less than 30 minutes. And, and, and we we actually started together with the world sorry, with We Mean Business Coalition and the Exponential Roadmap Initiative. We, we started an initiative within the United Nations Race to Zero campaign. It's sort of like SBTI, like science-based targets for, for SMEs. So it's an official part of the United Nations Race to Zero campaign called the SME Climate Hub and the entire problem statement of the SME Climate Hub was to make it possible for SMEs to engage in carbon data. So we did this survey where we asked a bunch of SMEs like, why don't you engage in carbon disclosures or net zero action? And most of them said, it's gonna be super expensive. It's gonna take a lot of time and effort. So what we found out is that the core reason, it's not because they don't care about the climate or that they don't see the business opportunity in engaging it with, in, in climate. It's, it's more like a resources problem. So the fact that we do not just through our carbon network and the value chain engagement in our carbon network, we do not just provide like a, a survey, but we also give them the tools, makes a huge, huge difference in terms of the overall response rates and actions that are taken across our, our carbon network.'cause that's what we care about in the end of the day. Like we don't wanna measure carbon for the sake of measuring it. We, we want to take like real action where we see reduction happening.

Tom Raftery: 19:57

Fair enough. Fair enough. And., can you tell me about any success stories you've had? Any customers who've managed to reduce emissions or make some significant difference?

Kristian Ronn: 20:11

Yeah. I mean there is a bunch of these success stories. So let me think who we should talk about. So, I mean, there's a couple of success stories. So we have someone like IEl Tel for instance, and that have reduced their emissions. I don't know exactly how many percent, but they're sort of on the right trajectory to reach their net zero targets. They've done so through electrification of their vehicle fleets. So they do a lot of like installations for like telecommunications and so on. So that would be a big success story. Then we have other success stories, such as Flying Tiger for instance analyzing. So they're, you know, a retailer where they sell a bunch of items. I think they have 1200 stores or something like that. And they sell like everyday items. And then by collecting the right type of, of accurate data, they could decide like, okay, it actually makes more sense for us. Instead of having like plastics materials here, let's switch to like other type of, of materials. So, so those are just some, some examples, but I think like overall there will be like more and more examples as we sort of probe deeper and deeper to in the supply chains. Because often, you know, the problem is if you, if you don't have the data, it's very hard to sort of act on it properly. And I, I think like right now we're sort of going towards the tier one. Our customers ask their suppliers for the data. But in order to really expand the carbon network to all relevant emissions, contributing legal entities on the planet, we ideally want those suppliers to invite their suppliers and invite their suppliers. And then you have sort of these viral network effects that build companies like Facebook, for instance. So I mean if, if our customers invite 10 of their suppliers that invite 10 of their suppliers then that just needs to happen six times to cover more or less like every legal entity on the planet. And obviously we're not there yet , but I think like that is really what we're trying, that is the code that we're trying to crack to get as much data exchange as possible across that network to make decarbonization concrete because in the end we have the solutions for most of the problems. And the solutions also give a good like return on investment. It is like solar power. It's wind power, it's electrification. We're starting to see alternatives way of, of, of producing cement, alternative ways of producing steel. There's like the agri forestry and, and, and other types of more sustainable agriculture and so on. So we have all those solutions, but it's just that the problem is hidden very deep down the supply chain. And so you can't act on it, but if you actually have the right data, you could make the investments and actually get a good return of investments. It's, it's not just like it would cost you, it would actually make you money over time. But unless you make carbon visible throughout supply chains, like that investment won't happen. And, and that's what we're trying to solve for.

Tom Raftery: 23:47

Sure, sure, sure. And if I want to have my suppliers report their carbon data to me using the carbon network, I send them, what is it? Some kind of a link to a questionnaire or a survey to fill out. You've got this calculator you said, which takes 30 minutes. I assume that's an online one. How does that work for them and are they charged for it?

Kristian Ronn: 24:16

Yes. So this is how it works for our, like large enterprise clients. So we, everything, more or less that a business do is encoded into the general ledger of that business. So you have like all invoices and business transactions. So if you work with a large retailer, we start by automatically analyzing all of the data in their general ledger. By doing that, we can figure out like, okay, which invoices are procurement of electricity or fuel for cars or things that release emissions in their own operations. Then for everything else, we essentially do like an estimate that, okay, you purchased like, I don't know dog food from this supplier. I'm just making something up here. You're purchasing something from this supplier and then we can sort of put a carbon estimate on top of that. And that's how you get a hotspot analysis. So they essentially get a hotspot. What are the most biggest suppliers and what are the biggest categories of emissions from your supply chain? And then based on those hotspots, you can create an engagement program. So you can see what are the top, like 20 suppliers that are responsible for let's say, I don't know, 40% of my emissions. And then you can sort of decide to engage with them first, perhaps. So then you create an engagement program and that way you generate a link. So that link you can either put into an email, emailing the supplier directly. That's where we have seen the best type of engagement because it's personal. You could also embed that link. If you have a supplier onboarding portal or some sort of other supplier engagement process that is digital, then you can just embed the link there. And what the suppliers will get is both a questionnaire component, if they don't have calculated carbon emissions, they also get access to that carbon calculator. And they get access to that for free if they're a SME. So that's, that's how it works.

Tom Raftery: 26:27

And what kind of details do they have to fill into the questionnaire?

Kristian Ronn: 26:32

So it's different depending on if they have, like the carbon data already. If they have the carbon data already, it's what were the carbon emissions in your scope one, two, and three? Do you have like an audit statement for those emissions that you can please upload that so we can trust that the data is is correct and accurate. If they don't have those carbon emissions, which is the case for like almost all suppliers they get access to that carbon calculator. And then they, it's, it's sort of, you know, a step by step of, of questions like what type of electricity do you have? What type of contract is it? How many kilowatt hours? If you don't have kilowatt hours, they can just say how much do they spend on the contract? And then we have like automatic conversions. We have like, you know, electricity prices for different parts of the world where we can convert the ki kilo spend to, to kilowatt hours. You ask similar questions for vehicles, like, how much do you spend on fuel or how many liters? So we try to meet the suppliers where they are. Because they might be in a situation where they actually don't have the liters or kilowatt hours, so the more accurate numbers, so then they can just fill in the spend and we do the automatic conversions and it's sort of accurate enough. And then we do that for a couple of categories and it takes like 30 minutes or less for, for a supplier to answer all of those questions.

Tom Raftery: 28:01

Okay. And if that supplier wants to then onboard their suppliers to go down the, the viral route that you're hoping for, do they then have to pay for bringing their suppliers onboard, or how does that work?

Kristian Ronn: 28:18

So they could just know it's like signing up for our free calculator is, is free. So they can just ask like, please sign up. But what, what they would pay for is sort of access to the data. So I mean, if they actually want the data from those suppliers, then they would need to pay for our, our, our paid plan. And what we're sort of trying to do here is that we're trying to empower the smaller enterprises to get their carbon emissions under control. But for larger enterprises that want insights from those smaller suppliers, they essentially pay for our standardized subscription. And, that's our, like, overall philosophy. Like if you can pay to keep the network up and running and that network creates a lot of business value for you, then, then of course you should pay for it. But if you just wanna publish to the network and then get some insights for, for yourself and especially if you're an SME, then then it should be free.

Tom Raftery: 29:22

Sure, sure. And so for any smaller businesses like that, using a platform like yours means that it's easier, you would hope for them to attract more business because they can now report their carbon data.

Kristian Ronn: 29:41

Exactly, and they have this single source of truth where whatever someone is asking them for data, they just need to do the calculation once.

Tom Raftery: 29:50

Okay. And then if they want to reduce their emissions, do they then need to pay for access to their supplier's data so that they can work with their suppliers to then get their carbon footprint further down?

Kristian Ronn: 30:05

Yes, exactly. So if they want to reduce the emissions or if they want to collaborate with their suppliers and get data from their suppliers then they would pay for the, for our sort of premium subscription. And I was about to say something else, but Yeah, no, I think I, I, I think I answered your question right.

Tom Raftery: 30:26

Yes. Yeah, no problem. And. where to next? I mean, you said you're going to COP and that, and that's kind of immediate, but where do you see this all going in the next 3, 4, 5, let's say six years? Because six years brings us nicely to 2030.

Kristian Ronn: 30:43

Yeah. So we have sort of a master plan in a sense for how we can make a difference on, on the climate. So I think that step number one is just making it as simple as possible to calculate the most accurate carbon emissions baseline. And then step two, which is what we're launching now and what we have been working on for several years is the carbon network where you can actually engage across your supply chain. You can ask through our value chain engagement module for carbon data. So that way you sort of have, hopefully this viral spread across the supply chains. Then step three. So that's sort of the timeline that you were talking about, like the next six years

Tom Raftery: 31:32

Mm-Hmm.

Kristian Ronn: 31:32

We're building an ecosystem of partners across our carbon network. And I think it's incredibly important to incentivize the right type of actions across any supply chain across the network. So that's when we would work with banks and financial services industries and insurance companies and rating agencies and other types of actors to incentivize the right type of action. So, as a matter of fact, like if you ask your supplier like, we want you to decarbonize your emissions, then maybe through this ecosystem, a bank in that region of the supplier is, is connected and they're saying, Hey, we can actually provide a low interest loan for you to electrify everything that you need to electrify for instance, or if it's insurance companies, they might say like, we're willing to give you lower insurance premiums. If, if you take the right type of action, or if it's rating agencies, they might say, you're gonna be rated more favorably on the market if you take these right actions. So I think that is the next step of the evolution of the network is the rollout of an ecosystem that will really incentivize reduction.

Tom Raftery: 32:51

Talk to me a little bit more about that, Kristian, because I mean, I can see why, but maybe people listening might not. Why would banks give low interest loans, or why would insurance companies give low interest, uh, insurance or lower premiums for companies or organizations who lower their emissions?

Kristian Ronn: 33:14

So it depends on the jurisdiction of the bank, and the jurisdiction of the insurance company. But in some places such as the European Union, they're incentivized to do so. And I don't know the exact details of how those incentives work because I'm not a bank myself, but throughout the world, governments are building these types of incentive structures where financial institutions are incentivized to give loans or finance the net zero transition. It's all about incentives in the end of the day. But that's where governments play an absolutely critical role as well. I mean, the government, the role of a government is to set the right type of incentives. And, and those incentives could be, you know, incentivize the financing of the net zero transitions. It could also be setting carbon taxes. I mean, right now the average carbon tax globally is five euros, or I think $5 per metric ton of, greenhouse gas emissions. That has to be 20 times higher in order for us to achieve our net zero targets. I think it's incredibly important that governments set the right incentives for, reduction to happen in global value chains for finance to happen, but also for R&D to happen. I mean, there are certain areas where we don't have solutions yet. I mean, we need to scale up the, for instance, fossil free steel. So in, in Sweden, they're also one of the companies that, that we're going together with as a part of the Swedish delegation to COP like, but SSAB, they're pioneering fossil free steel. And the Swedish government is investing in this, because they know that if Sweden can lead that globally then, like every single car manufacturer or train manufacturer or construction company, will ask for Swedish steel specifically, which is a great business opportunity and that's in fact, how we manage to get so far when it comes to solar power as well. So I think some people might have sort of the naive picture that the price drop of of solar, like the exponential price drop was just due to companies and, and free markets, but it was actually due to relentless subsidies. Germany and then later on China to give the right incentives to produce more solar, produce more solar, even at the point when it was not super profitable. Uh, but then if you make it and sort of nudge it in the right direction as a government, then eventually becomes profitable because of economies of scale. And that's what, what, what, what happened with, with solar. And I think electric cars is another great example. I mean, Tesla is you know, rightly so hailed as the pioneer within electric vehicles. But at one point in time, I think it was 20 or 25% of Tesla sales globally were all going to Norway. And that was all because of the electric vehicle incentives that Norway rolled out. Oh, and if it wasn't for that, Tesla wouldn't have been what it is today. So, , so I think all of those things are, are important. I mean, we're all need to work together, governments and, and civil society, and, and citizens electing governments that actually promise to roll out these types of incentives. And, and then corporates, doing the grunt work of actually reducing emissions.

Tom Raftery: 37:14

Cool. Cool, cool. Kristian, we're coming towards the end of the podcast now. Is there any question I haven't asked that you wish I had or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of?

Kristian Ronn: 37:30

I think one question is, what does the ideal sort of world look like? I mean, what does the, does success, look like? Sure so , yeah. Do you wanna ask that question or should I answer it straight away as if you

Tom Raftery: 37:48

for it. Go for it? Kristian Ronn: I'm gonna go for it. So I, I like this question because people sometimes assume that the ideal world is a world where every single product, packaging and every single, product on the market has some sort of carbon label. So consumers can choose the low emissions alternative. That's not how I see the ideal world. The ideal world is a world where every consumer can buy any product on the market and know that this product has not destroyed the world., or contributed to the destruction of, of, of, of the world, hasn't contributed to climate change in the supply chain and in the production phases of that product. And I think it's sort of similar how we argue about most things. Like if I go to the store and buy an apple and then if I sort of . die of lead poisoning afterwards. It's, it's not that someone will say, but hey, it said on the product packaging that it had lead in it. Like, how stupid are you that bought this apple? It would be like, but no, like no apples should have poisonous amounts of lead in it. That should just be the default. So you don't even have to think about it as a consumer. And that's the ideal world when it comes to climate change. We know by default that every single actor in the supply chain of that product did the right thing. Everyone went net zero so that you and I, when we go out on the market, don't have to even think about it. Excellent. Excellent. Cool, cool. Kristian, that's been really interesting. If people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed on the podcast today. Where would you have me direct them?

Kristian Ronn: 39:47

So I would direct them to our website normative dot io.

Tom Raftery: 39:54

Simple, straightforward, fantastic. Love it. Kristian, that's been fascinating. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Kristian Ronn: 40:00

Thanks a lot, Tom. I had a very fun conversation.

Tom Raftery: 40:05

Okay, thank you all for tuning in to this episode of the Digital Supply Chain Podcast with me, Tom Raftery. Each week, over 3, 000 supply chain professionals listen to this show. If you or your organization want to connect with this dedicated audience, consider becoming a sponsor. You can opt for exclusive episode branding where you choose our guests or a personalized 30 second mid roll ad. It's a unique opportunity to reach industry experts and influencers. For more details, hit me up on Twitter or LinkedIn or drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com. Together, let's shape the future of the digital supply chain. Thanks. Catch you all next time.