Sustainability in supply chains is an extremely important topic these days. Atos do a huge amount of work in this space so I reached out to them to have someone come on to talk about what they're doing in the space.
I got to speak to not one, but two of their senior execs - Prof dr Abbas Shahim, Global Head of Digital Decarbonisation at Atos. Abbas drives end to end customer strategy on Decarbonization for Atos. And PadmaPrasad Munirathinam, CTO, Portfolio Solutions Head for SAP Practice. PadmaPrasad drives Strategy, Innovation, and Sustainability Eco-system.
We had a great conversation about reducing the IT supply chain carbon footprint, sustainability business outcomes, and the data associated with carbon emissions.
I learned loads. I hope you do too.
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There is a hard distinction between our business processes in it the way it was in the past so decarbonisation at the business side and we will catch up with it later on. They need to see it as one whole, and they need to make sure that the carbonization is there from day one.Tom Raftery:
Good morning, good afternoon or good evening wherever you are in the world. This is the digital supply chain podcast, the number one podcast focusing on the digitization of supply chain. And I'm your host, global Vice President at SAP. Tom Raftery. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the digital supply chain podcast. My name is Tom Raftery with SAP and with me on the show today I have my two special guests of us and Padma Prasad. Gentlemen, would you like to introduce yourselves? Maybe with us going first?Abbas Shahim:
Yes, thank you, Tom. Hello, everyone, Abbas Shahim. I'm the head of digital decarbonisation practice at Atlas worldwide. Okay.PadmaPrasad Munirathinam:
Hey, everyone, my name is PadmaPrasad, I take care of the ACP solutions locally for a task practice. One of the crea topic that I look into is sustainability and sustainable Lifecycle Management. Okay, superb.Tom Raftery:
So, let's start off abus. You mentioned you're the head of decarbonisation globally at at us. Why is decarbonisation important? Why are we trying to reduce co2 emissions? And how does that play into the digital agenda?Abbas Shahim:
Yeah, it's a couple of things to share. So we see obviously, that the pace of this transformation is even faster than ever planned, partly due to this to this pandemic, but also partly because of the different market forces that companies need to respond to including obviously globalization and technology. So we see a fast paced transformation at the moment, forcing organizations to go also in the direction of sustainability, which is obviously, decarbonisation is not a new comer on the business scene. Lots of our large clients have dealt with that in the past. But as they become more dependent on it, it becomes more relevant for them to strategize also the IT side of decarbonisation in their operations. So, suppose you are a sea level, you go on stage and you present all your plans to grow and to penetrate into new markets. And you talk about digitalization and sustainability Do not touch upon the IT side, though, that clients will say to us that it's no longer tolerated. And they don't want to have sustainability or decarbonisation as an afterthought. So not being fully transformed in a digital fashion. And then later on somebody knock on the door, say, Okay, guys, have you ever thought of the sustainability side. So that's, that's one angle, john. And the other angle is, obviously, with regard to more platform businesses becoming successful. So the successful appearance of those platform businesses on the market is, is quite, it's quite exciting to follow. And those companies have a different mindset in terms of agility and leadership and and how they approached the market very, obviously, very much digitally. So they have found out that digital channels will be the first primary point of contact towards the clients. And they also know that automation will be the main driver of the productivity of the future. So they have a very different mindset in that sense, and they start acting. So suppose somebody asked them, What is your business as a just adjust company, I won't mention any name of the company, but the large ones we use in order to watch a movie, or to order a taxi or to order a order some food, for instance. So those guys that present themselves differently, and obviously, their business, is it? So if somebody asked them, What is your business, actually, they mostly say we are in big it factory, but obviously with a license to operate in a sector so that in that sense, they can't say there is a hard distinction between our business processes in it the way it was in the past or decarbonisation at the business side, and we will catch up with it later on. They need to see it as one whole. And they need to make sure that the carbonization is there from day one.Tom Raftery:
They're inextricably linked. Is that is that what you're saying?Abbas Shahim:
Exactly, exactly. And the boundaries, the heart boundaries between the once again business process and it are blurring. So as a result of that concept, we do this first and then we go through it, it's just one hole and they need to deal with it.Tom Raftery:
Yeah, that never said anything to add to that.PadmaPrasad Munirathinam:
I see this in fact, from from from a compliance point of view, people were thinking that they need to focus mainly on adopting some of the rules around sustainable To decarbonisation, but obviously, what we are seeing also, this is sort of combined together with the Business Economics of an organization's of a country, it is actually adding a lot of value, you see the outcomes is not seen just from a compliance point of view, but also from the Business Economics point of view. Now, that is another driver that we are seeing that is that is actually addressing the challenges of sustained growth which organization can have, and obviously, beyond measuring the top and top line and the bottom line, measuring the green line is becoming very important. And then, like, as I was pointed out, any annual reports that we take, sustainability is always on the top, whether it's an IT organization, or whether it's it's a it's a manufacturing organization, or even for that matter, they need talking about some of our public sector customers, they see the ss, ss a top goals that they wanted to achieve more sustainability point of view.Tom Raftery:
Okay. Okay. And, you know, beyond pushing for compliance, what are what are the enablers from global global authorities that guide and support us towards, you know, sustainable process adoption?PadmaPrasad Munirathinam:
Yeah, I would say the most important thing that we have seen is the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, which is actually defined pretty well as a sort of, you know, bridge between what is expected from a sustainability perspective, and how organizations could actually adopt them. And then obviously, when we really talk about certain goals around sustainable society, sustainable industry growth or ecosystem or sustainable governance from the fact we are saying close linkage between each of the goals that has been defined under these SDG only United Nations SDG model, and that is actually enabling organizations to clearly adhere to those rules that could also result in a business or Cambodia expecting. Now as I say, some time back, people were always thinking sustainability is a cost that they need to incur, as they adopted. But finally, what will what we could see is, it's a sort of sustained model that they can develop from a business point of view that could actually give them business outcomes, not just you know, incurring costs. So again, when we go to utilities organization, we look at how affordable and clean energy could actually help them to make their you know, the complete process from a maintenance point of view could actually be much more simpler for them when they adopted when we talk about clean water and sanitation, how that could actually be delivered by the water companies. So there is there is there are enablers coming from those goals, which might could be seen as a design element blueprint point of view that could be your Auckland by the customers that can actually help them promote sustainable processes that they can follow and help in achieving the business outcomes. They're looking at, above any, any points that you've seen from your experience from a decarbonisation point of view can appreciate.Abbas Shahim:
So one other point to share is obviously with regard to a business risk. So we see that decarbonisation is increasingly associated with a business race as the lack of meeting those requirements that is set by the government, or probably the companies set for themselves, that they would that could affect their financial performance that could have that could lead to, for instance, a reputation damage that could have a financial financial impact. That could be the perception of the market. So in particular, the shareholders, even banks, that they may refuse to work with you. But the important thing that we usually see is that also the shareholders and other stakeholders, they decarbonized their own portfolio as well. So in other words, they want to invest in companies advocating sustainability, because they just don't want to pressurize anybody else while they are doing something yet. So that's that's also a big pressure on organizations at the moment.Tom Raftery:
Yeah, it's interesting. I've another podcast Apart from this, the climate 21 podcast, and I've had a couple of guests on that from JP Morgan, and also from the London Stock Exchange group. And, you know, they've all been saying this kind of thing as well that the investment community is shifting very much towards investing in clean portfolios. And a lot of it is down to risk mitigation, because investing in stocks that are heavy and carbon, you know, you're investing in stocks that might be legislated against a regulated against, for example, and you could be left with stranded assets. So it's a fascinating area to watch. But looking at the scene as this is the digital supply chain podcast, not the climate 21 podcast, we should talk a little bit about supply chain and why it's a high priority to decarbonize that Can you can you maybe boss or partner per side, whichever jump in and talk a little bit about that?Abbas Shahim:
Yeah, so I will make a start on that. Please partner cross eyed jumping. So a couple of a couple of drivers, Tom. So, you know, supply chain has always been a challenge to every organization regardless of the topic in the past, it was also, for instance, the security aspects of dealing with with the supply chain. But in this particular case, we see that also clients perceiving the supply chain no longer as a fragmented arena of vendors and suppliers, they want to move towards an integrated ecosystem, that becomes more important to them to really get the value out of that. And when it comes to that, we see that there are hardly any requirements in the contracts closed with any vendor or supplier. It's upcoming, but it's not there. So number of conversations we had and still running, by the way, is all about the client saying for us is the sustainability is the supply chain from a sustainability perspective is a black box, we hardly have any visibility in there. And if we want to make visibility just to start with a contract, so talking to the procurement departments, that's an ongoing activity we almost do on a daily basis. But also, even if we have that we we struggle to define what do we need to get back from the supply chain in order to be able to measure them on their co2 emissions? So what are the data that we need? What is the capability that we need to have in house to collect them to interpret it, to analyze them to interpret it, and to present it and dashboard it in a in an understandable fashion for non experts? So we show them the graph? And what is that graph really telling us rather than the numbers and then lots of lots of abbreviations there. So that's a that's a challenge they dealing with. And it's and we are in the early stage, I think as a not as a company, but the society around us in early stage to get more visibility in that space. So Padma prasa, do you want to add anything else before I move on?PadmaPrasad Munirathinam:
Yeah, that's, that's a great view. Boss. In fact, I just wanted to take some of the use cases which have been practically that I am seeing with customers, because supply chain as different ways of understanding. And for me, a supply chain for every customer is running faster, it has to run without interruption, the whole process has to be fast, it has to be without interruption. And if I look from that point of view, there are both internal criterias there are the external impacts that can actually impact the whole supply chain. Now again, let me go back a little on the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, when we are actually trying to research from a product point of view, and trying to see how the products in the market could actually meet this faster and without interruption of managing the SU from a supply chain point of view. And it can go from a sustainable society, or an or an employed experience that you will have in an organization to actually manage a good health and well being, it could be a responsible consumption and production that you look from a sustainable industry to that you'd like to do from overall supply chain perspective, so that you procure the right goods, you actually have the right supplier, you're the right logistics to bring it in your right type of operations to execute your production. It can also be sustainable ecosystem where you get the clean water and sanitation from the utilities organization. So So and then finally, a sustainable governance, which see no government puts across to make all these things work together. So if I look from a supply chain point of view, again, all these elements work together to address both the internal criterias or internal needs with the external impact that can I pay the overall supply chain, now combined together, and when we start seeing the use cases that we're delivering to the customer, we could see if we are actually able to make each of these processes sustainable, then it's much easier when I say sustainable when we decarbonize when they try to ensure that the processes are much more cleaner, the long activity, the business normativity of these solutions are much much better. And that is actually helping customers to run without interruption. Now when I say customers, again, the ecosystem right when I talk about the ecosystem, where they buy, where they produce, where they deliver, where they sell, so the complete ecosystem goes as part of this whole process. And since we see like, you know, these Supply Chain Solutions on not not just a technology supply chain, but it also involves society supply chain, it also involves ecosystem, it also involves governance that the you know, the the country's sexual or or the government or the or the departments can actually provide to the customers. So So hence, I think it's a very, very interesting story when we talk about agile supply chain and sustainability and bringing them together.Tom Raftery:
Okay, and I read a McKinsey report recently which said that 80% of organized nation's emissions come from the supply chain. So I mean, right there that that tells you straight away the importance of supply chain and decarbonisation. The other the other aspect, of course, is regulation. The EU has regulated that by 2030, we want to get rid of 55% of our emissions based on our 1990 baseline, the US has just said under the Biden administration that they want to get to 52% reductions based on their 2005 baseline. And China has said that it wants to get to net zero by 2060, which seems far away, but you need interim goals. And one of the interim goals is to mandate that each province sources 40% of its electricity from renewable sources. So, you know, just in the next eight and a half years to 2030, we're going to see huge requirements in these three large economic areas to decarbonize. So this is a this is a top line issue right now, just based on regulations alone.Abbas Shahim:
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Very, very important topic. And so indeed, what we what we also see is that the way to measure the emission of supply chain, so let's let's keep it in IT services, what we see increasingly, is that, okay, do we need a mechanism? Or do we have a mechanism in place that we can measure the co2 emission of an IT service? Or suppose you buy a cloud service or digital workplace or any other it related services? Guys, how can I measure that I can measure that emission? And how can I get more grip on it in order to start reducing it and renegotiation with the with the with the suppliers. So we have a concept introduced to the market, which is called decarbonisation level agreement. So is in fact, you could say very plainly set a replication of what is quite common in the IT industry, which is the service level agreements, the so called SLA. So it's SLA briefly all about the service quality. So what are the KPIs the indicators we need to implement, and we start measuring and reporting. So we report back to client and entrance in a transparent fashion, what the service quality is, and in fact, we deliver in accordance with agreed upon contract, we replicate the same concept, but for decarbonisation, saying that when we start an engagement with a client, we contract fully commit ourselves to reduction of the co2 emission of the service they buy, during the delivery of contract. So during three to four years, then we have a plan, we show a roadmap, we say, guys, this is the current state. And this is where we move towards. And this is how the roadmap roadmap look like it is this concept is received very well. And it's a mandatory part of our contracts at the moment as we speak. So it means that for every large contract we run for our clients a large is obviously with a substantial amount of about 10 million, because that should have been that that's where the value comes from, and to start that conversation with the client, and we are increasing them about every single service. So for cloud for data centers, for SAP, integration, etc, will be all brought to the table to show our commitment, but also supporting clients to drive in that in that direction. One other point that I'd like to point out is that the technology is one part of the entire picture. Sure. So there are there are the processes around that is probably done by still by people manually, there are lots of people around to maintain it, there is a way of usage of the service. So we have we have a view that it must be a more comprehensive approach to really move towards the netzero. But obviously, technology is where it starts. That's the word the largest energy consumption comes from. But we believe that the picture is much larger than only the technological side.PadmaPrasad Munirathinam:
Sure. It's a that's a great point. In fact, maybe we should just change our service level agreements in our contracts into convert them into sustainability Level Agreements going forward. And in autos, we are already doing that, right? Because if we look into the way how we define our services, for example, whether we talk to the data center services or hosting, or or for that matter, even if we deliver an a score, or or a software that we deliver to the customer, we start measuring, if this software is being implemented, then how fast the processes are going to run, how it's actually going to reduce the sustainability because finally, for processes are running faster, you're not you know, going to waste, your base are going to be reduced or inventories are going to be less than an inch of the portray. Resources you're consuming is going to less that's actually going to make the sustainability mature better. So from there to that level, we actually get this sustainability agreement for the sustainability schools to the customer so that it is easier for someone to visualize upon from the outcome that I get from it from a business point of view, there's a sustainability outcome to a specific product. It could be from any software vendor, but we associate a school to that, that actually helps customers. And we commit to that. And so we'll see it's just as soon as notices they were like, even resources sustainable the argument that we give to the customers.Tom Raftery:
Nice, nice, nice and partner present. You talked earlier about how sustainability is not just about compliance, but it also delivers business outcomes that you know, impact Business Economics positively. Can you speak a little bit more about that?PadmaPrasad Munirathinam:
Yeah, sure. Because nowadays, whenever we go to our customers, obviously, to be to be honest, customers are much ahead of the organization's product organizations or service organizations. So it's not because you know, ASAP is delivering climate 21 or at houses delivering decarbonisation, it's not like we are right, it's because the customers are looking for it. So whenever we go to the customers, the most important thing that we see is, how can I address these sustainability needs on the upstream? Not once it has occurred? So it's not the rectification that they are looking at, but they are looking at the processes that could could be adopted on the upstream so that it could be avoided. So prevention is what they're looking at not rectification given example. When we go to a procure chocolate chief procurement officer, and we start talking to him, What are his priorities when it comes to category management or major priorities, CPUs, all they say is like, Guys, I would like to see that my products that I procure from my software is sustainable, the software is sustainable. So there are two things products are sustainable, that means the quality parameters of those products wherever it comes from, with globalization's products can come from anywhere as long as they meet the technical and the commission needs, but then you need to see how sustainable those products are. And number two, are they coming from a sustainable source? Like Like, for example, in in, in growing countries, you might actually employ a child workforce, which is not seen as a sustainable team, right? So So we actually and then they start looking from the perspective how do I get the right sorts of place, now, that gets carried on right, because if I get the right foods, obviously, my rejections on the line will be lesser, and hence my supply chain will be faster my interactions with this, you know, much more less. And obviously, we see from that point of view, those are the solutions which our customers already have in mind. Now, the next thing that you also see is like as we go from that perspective, when they do the design, green designs, which they talk about or green manufacturing, which we could talk about all our sustainability as part of it combining that together with the employee safety, right coming from an environmental health and safety, it actually it's, you know, they they're not looking at new use processes for they're looking at us make my current process sustainable. And, and do it faster. And nowadays, to give an example, if I go to a customer, we just don't provide a solution for procurement or for manufacturing, we give a solution for procurement, that could actually come from a sustainable source manufacturing, that could actually happen with the right emissions. So those are the solutions that we we deliver. And then Luckily for us, the product vendors have also caught up on this thing, and we are seeing that product vendors are also delivering those solutions, maybe not completely out of box, but but but I can see that that is available as as a solution to for the customers to be adopted. So our experiences are always be customers are ready, they are looking for it with an outcome. And the outcome is not just from a compliance point of view, but that outcome is again, looking from cost optimization, looking from the multiplying their productions, and then it's all again, tied up to their business KPIs which are looking,Tom Raftery:
okay, we're obviously very much still at early stages of this process. And one of the huge I mean, you alluded to it earlier about one of the huge issues that's important here is around data and collecting data. Where are we with that? How do we go about collecting and reporting this, you know, carbon and emissions data?Abbas Shahim:
Yeah, it's still as you mentioned yourself, Tom in an early stage, what we see what we see in practice, so need to collect and, and and etc, and what data elements and where to get it from, we increasingly see that there is no mechanism in place in order to collect the data that they need. So it's usually very much a scattered I would say knowledge in different platforms or systems. And this system one does collect cabin data, one system to collect cabin data to etc. So it's not a an array of structured activities. So as the importance of cabin data increases, In terms of reporting, sustainable reporting, it becomes obviously relevant to have to at least consider two aspects when it's come to data collection. One is that it must be a traceable processing place, traceable, in the sense that it is, it is easy to understand how the process works, what the flow is, what is the data that goes through that? And what are the steps there? What are the checks and balances that make sure that the data goes through that that process in a smooth fashion and nothing evil happen to the date. That's one thing, which is from a audit perspective, very, very important to have that in place. The second is that when when you get the data and you collect them, and you put them in a reporting platform, obviously lots of it areas of scalability, etc. But the most important thing is what are the data data has been collected, integrated and reported in an in an accurate and complete fashion? So in other words, if you say, by the end of this month, we save 10,000 tons of first day to admission? Are we sure that this 10,000 is accurate and complete? And if so, can we go back in the chain? To verify that to validate that? So that we could say yes, we sign off on this? So that's a very important aspects of, of cabin data. So to get it and ensure the integrity of its processing, obviously, in addition to the challenges that still are, in terms of what data do we need? And if we know it, what is the collection and process? Do we have a formalized process in place? And do we know where to go and get it? And then to hold integrity aspects of that?Tom Raftery:
What about the solution and service providers? I mean, there's a huge requirement for them to scale up to meet the needs of the customers you're talking about? Are they doing it?Abbas Shahim:
Yeah. So we, we obviously have a couple of platforms that that that we can bring to the table in order to support our clients and running engaged in this in order to report on that. But at the other hand, we see that we also need to be aligned with the maturity of the client in whom we talk. So we just don't want to, in fact, overwhelm them with lots of technology type of solutions, while they're saying, whoa, whoa, guys, we are just in that early stage and then can we can be jumping to what is what is required. So in that sense, we have a, we have a three steps approach at the moment. This is step one in that approach is a formalized what we call a cabin data collection mechanism. So a mechanism that goes beyond technology. So it requires people it requires processes, it requires engagement, probably even with your supply chain, so that you either go and get the data, or you make agreements, that data is delivered to you at a certain frequency so that you can get that. So that's that's stage one. And stage two, obviously a scalable platform that could be used. And I use the word platform, because there's more than only an analytical capability as good as you could imagine. And there are a couple of solutions that we bring to the table or clients may suggest themselves. And the third one is to make sure that it's getting operationalized and getting integrated into their reporting process. So it's not an stand alone activity, but it's become part of the whole sustainability reporting side. So that also the contribution of of the IT side, for instance, in this case, become more visible and measurable and clear.Tom Raftery:
Okay, PadmaPrasad anything to add to that?PadmaPrasad Munirathinam:
Yeah, sure. Because, like it like I come from a safety practice and I've been following up very closely what ACB does from the point of view? And is it like a something that is not available? See, I've been doing sustainability with ACP solutions for the last 12 years. And it is not like climate 21 is only solution right. There has always been sustainability that has been provided as part of solutions, it's up to up to the consulting organizations like us to deliver to the customers as we are seeing that there are solutions that are available that meets their needs. Like I said example that I given a sustainable procurement Can I actually live reality is we should be doing that, can I can I leverage. So now or smart manufacturing to deliver a much more better manufacturing solutions? Yes, we could do so like I said, it is something that we are already delivering. At the same time, we are also following the roadmap of climate bankable. Now there are other solutions also we look very closely with especially when it comes to enterprises and with the governance point of view. We actually look at the Ico act as one of our major providers from from Ico acquisition at all somebody and To follow their specific models or frameworks is actually helping us to deliver on top, obviously, the solution. So, so in a way, I think we are not going to wait for it known as Wait, no one actually has time to wait, because it's something that the customers like I said, are we expecting, and and there are solutions that are available and we are delivering. And the more important thing here is, we should have a roadmap because it is not possible for me to BIGBANG sustainability implementation on one goal, then it's an evolving process, right? That's another important thing we should do. So the evolving process as we implementing getting more about it, and what what can you optimize? So it's a cycle. And I believe, customers will will will do this for the next three or four years. Now the thing is, I also wanted to point out those if you go to Google Trends, and if you see what people are searching for, again, people are mainly searching for sustainability. And you can see the hits are always fine. And then the hits are high on those countries, which you mentioned something that right. It's very high when it comes to nowadays when it comes to Singapore when it comes to but obviously, it again, depends upon how customers will adopt where they got off the phone.Tom Raftery:
Okay, folks, we're coming towards the end of the podcast. Now, is there any question I have not asked you that you wish I had, or any topic we've not brought up that you think it's important for people to be aware of?Abbas Shahim:
One one point to share, Tom. And that's with regard to what we call to strategize it side of sustainability. So it's an important part, to make sure that it gets a prominent position in the sustainability strategy of the clients, lots of CIOs telling us, they were they were asked last year by what they call business saying, guys, what was your concrete contribution to our sustainability strategy? And and we have no concrete answer to get back to them. So in that sense, it's very important to strategize to make sure that there are concrete measures, there is a right alignment, to make sure that it also succeeds to show the value and also show the contribution to achieving the sustainable to strategy for two main reasons that I mentioned earlier. So the pace of digital transformation, and obviously, the appearance and more becoming successful of this digital platform businesses.PadmaPrasad Munirathinam:
Just to just one more point from my side, I think we have talked about all the enablers and all the great things, but there are still some challenges, right? Especially when we talk about the reporting frameworks. There are so many reporting frameworks and obviously some something like dojo Jones or or or prime, global reporting initiative gra are being you know, followed a lot. But then there is a lot of reporting style frameworks that are they needs to get rationalized so that it's much easier for for for customers to adopt, or sometimes too much of choices also leaves you with confusion. The second thing is about the content, right sustainability content. I believe one of the major problems that customers at some, some time like is like for example, they may not actually have a place where they can do a complete inventory of all the suppliers, like for example, a reverse supply. And it looks like both solutions provides it. But then every so every SAS solution product has some sort of content. But this content is actually not equipped with sustainable PII data, which might actually be very helpful. I think that's another place where you could find a lot of challenges, getting the data and using it straight away is not possible. Most of the times, customers have to build the data for their needs. So I believe these two things need to be definitely addressed. However, there are roadmaps, which product vendors and an obviously be providers also have a sort of model that we wanted to follow on that front working together with partners. But then these are two things that needs to be definitely addressed as you go forward to bring the exclusive.Tom Raftery:
Okay, super, super. Thank you for that PadmaPrasad. Okay, folks, we're coming to the end of the podcast. Now, if people want to know more about yourselves are about at us, or any of the things we've talked about in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?PadmaPrasad Munirathinam:
I think there is a sustainability summit that we did recently in United Kingdom where we actually have a complete details around all the sustainable solutions that we provide. And that's one place we actually have a software where we specifically focus in in the in the session on sustainable supply chain. So those are two places where from an SAP point of view, and others as a result of other topics under this umbrella service, would you like to share some of the places where people can look without or sustained topics.Abbas Shahim:
Yes. So we have a dedicated website and our external website, Tom on our decarbonisation activity so clients who want to get in touch with us on this topic, they can always visit the website, obviously, and see our services products and point of point of contacts. That's one thing. Second is we run a number of events every single year, also on decarbonisation, since we formally have started with this with this topic, so we might clients and share our views with them. And the third one is obviously in different interviews with with analysts we in which we participate so that there is also the possibility for for our clients and the market to ask us a question. But in fact, the website is the primary point of contact for us at the moment, which provides a good overview of Atlas capabilities.Tom Raftery:
Okay, gents. That's been great. Thanks. A million for coming on the podcast today. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Cheers. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks, everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about digital supply chains, head on over to sa p.com slash digital supply chain or, or simply drop me an email to Tom Raftery at sa p.com. If you'd like to show, please don't forget to subscribe to it and your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.